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Do we need to create an artificial spike? If so, when?

164 replies

CheriLittlebottom · 01/04/2020 12:06

Was thinking about this off the back of random musing about when schools might reopen.

Do we need to try to get a lot of society infected with this in the early summer, say June, so that the NHS have June, July, August to deal with the biggest wave of sick people, then hopefully see numbers coming down from September as we start getting into autumn and winter?

Obviously we can't stay in lockdown forever, or until there's a vaccine, the economy will completely tank. Is there a "best" time to increase transmission in the hope that we can push up herd immunity? Was also thinking about those in the shielded groups, how long can they realistically keep themselves completely isolated?

If schools did reopen after the May half term, and most people went back to work (not the most at risk) would that work? Would the NHS have the capacity and equipment in place by then?

I don't know enough about transmission rates etc to know if this is a good idea or not!

OP posts:
TestBank · 01/04/2020 21:30

Yes I know that. It's just being soft soaped now. There is no strategy of staying in lockdown until it is eradicated/a vaccine is mass produced. Most people are going to get it. Those who get it will still die or not die. Ventilators mostly don't work anyway and there are until now no proven treatments. But, the death rate is pretty low until you hit 70+

TestBank · 01/04/2020 21:31

Oh and up to 25% of people are asymptomatic. And kids don't die (yeah ok 0.0016% do)

RuffleCrow · 01/04/2020 21:39

Just because testbank is extremely self-assured, don't be fooled into thinking their claims have any substance.

Of course we can go on creating money - that's how we recovered from the worst economic crisis in living memory. - Which was only 12 flipping years ago for christ's sake! Stop putting arbitrary limits on things.

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 21:43

Testbank, this is not true. The death rate for children 11-19 is 0.2%; this is 2 children per 1000; this could translate into 40,000 dead children.

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 21:44

Yes, only 50% recover from being in ICU; but half of ICU are people under 60 year old.

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 21:45

Saving half of them is a big deal. 50 year old is very very young age to die.

BeijingBikini · 01/04/2020 21:46

We hardly "recovered" from 2008, most of this country have no savings and barely any young people can afford houses. But yes, of course we can just print out infinite money with no ill effects......

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 21:52

Bejing it's ideology and politics. Its because our neoliberal government doesn't believe in society and doesn't want to invest in it. There are different ways out of a crash. Portugal elected different leaders and is improving. Look even at how America got out of the great depression - through Roosevelt's New Deal, massive investment by the country into its own development, massive programmes and the printing of money. Something that for neoliberals is an anathema. They want maximum deregulation and financial control given to the market, the state to shrink, everything rules by the market. But why am I explaining. Read on Hayek and the Chicago school.

peajotter · 01/04/2020 21:56

Thank you to all those who actually read the papers and gave interesting summaries. I haven’t had time so please point out my errors below ....

So from what I can see, the point of allowing a spike in deaths would be to gradually increase immunity to herd-immunity levels. However unless I don’t understand the figures, surely this will take a significant number of cycles - if maybe 5% of the population have had it now, and we’re probably past the peak of initial infections, then we’re looking at 10% immune after one peak. So it could take maybe 7 cycles of peak-nhs to reach herd immunity with these estimates (ignoring cumulative effects etc).

Or- we could go down the contact tracing and extensive testing route. Potentially a two tier society (immune vs not) and massive privacy loss but keep a lid on it until a vaccine is developed. I think this is more likely.

TestBank · 01/04/2020 22:00

I am more resigned than self assured. This is not where I wanted us to be. Our government made poor choices. But, it might have spread anyway. And so, yes, people are going to die. And no, they are not going to be children, apart from a few outliers which is very awful and each death is absolutely tragic at that age in particular. It's just where we are. Lockdown is not sustainable and neither is it anything other than a temporary measure that postpones deaths. You can either look at the positives, thank fuck kids are essentially spared, or the negatives, it doesn't really matter either way as it's a virus so it's not personal. I prefer positives as it boosts your immune system more. Now isn't the time to have a lower immune system.

RuffleCrow · 01/04/2020 22:01

You're not making any sense @BeijingBikini. Poor wages and employment levels have sod all to do with quantative easing.

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 22:06

I understand that people need different mental strategies to cope. But I also find minimisation and attempts to simplify everything to one of two extreme options are annoying. We are in a lockdown now; there are a variety of scenarios, and combinations of those. I don't have much of a problem with not knowing. We are in uncharted territory. And we are going to be finding out about different strategies very soon.

RandomLondoner · 01/04/2020 22:09

As you say ..as per original govt strategy. Government seemed happy enough with it at the time didn't they. Bizarre it might be but they were happy enough to go on tv and tell us a lot of us were going to lose loved ones before their time.

The government weren't happy to let 500,000 people die. They changed strategy to prevent it, after that number was given to them.

TestBank · 01/04/2020 22:12

It's too late to bother panicking about death rates now. May as well just focus on the positives. It genuinely is better for your own immune system.

RandomLondoner · 01/04/2020 22:12

The point is that given we can't keep the whole world indoors for up to two years

At no point in time will the whole world be indoors. Just because people aren't eating out in restaurants, and are cutting their own hair, it doesn't mean farmers aren't producing food, right now.

Anyway, once the first lockdown has done its job, I'm sure we'll find a variety of ways for even many non-essential workers to go back to work. It's not all or nothing.

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 22:13

Random Ha-ha! Hahaha! HAHAHA! Yes anyone could calculate it on the back of the napkin but it was kept secret and hidden from the government. Oh yes I buy it totally.

TestBank · 01/04/2020 22:16

That nice psychopath Cummings had a total change of opinion once he realised, apparently.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2020 22:24

@minipie Not Merkel; it is entirely my private view that foreign holidays may not return until we have a vaccine and consequent high herd immunity, plus the situation calming down

Hence my guess at 2 years until then

Otherwise, which country, after they have painfully got infections under control, wants to have millions of new people, any of whom might be infected ?

It is not feasible to start each holiday with a 14-day quarantine,
so at the very least, I expect they would require that people entering have an "immunity certiificate" stating they have the antibodies

and / or comprehensive insurace policies to cover all costs of quarantine etc

  • which would likely have very high premiums, if insurance companies would even do this
buttermilkwaffles · 01/04/2020 22:27

"UK must remain in full lockdown until June to avoid worst effects of #covid19, UK gov leading epidemiology adviser said.
Senior govt figures more optimistic, suggesting restrictions could be eased sooner than June: peak of crisis expected in week of April 12.
mobile.twitter.com/lindayueh/status/1244203389325582336

Do we need to create an artificial spike? If so, when?
istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 22:29

I don't think he didn't "realise" he just found it acceptable at first. I would not second guess why he changed his mind. He might have "realised" people would try to behead the government if suddenly over the course of a few months the UK had the number of dead it acquired over the entire second world war? I imagine he liked his little system he imagined at first (quite social darwinistic, getting rid of problematic population, etc) and with psychopathic tendencies did not quote think it through at the beginning.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2020 22:32

(paywall) Inside No 10 How Boris Johnson changed his priorities: save lives first, and then salvage the economy

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-ten-days-that-shook-britain-and-changed-the-nation-for-ever-spz6sc9vb

The meeting that will change British society for a generation took place on the evening of Thursday, March 12.

That was when the strategic advisory group of experts (SAGE in Whitehall parlance),
the government’s committee of scientists and medics,
gathered to examine modelling from experts at Imperial College London and other institutions.

The results were shattering.

A week earlier, councils had been warned to expect about 100,000 deaths from Covid-19.

Now Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, and Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, realised the estimates were wrong.

“Unmitigated, the death number was 510,000,”

a senior figure said.
“Mitigated we were told it was going to be 250,000.

Once you see a figure of take no further action and a quarter of a million people die, the question you ask is,
‘What action?’”

Another insider said:
“There was a collision between the science and reality.”
......
Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s senior aide,
became convinced that Britain would be better able to resist a lethal second wave of the disease next winter
if Whitty’s prediction that 60% to 80% of the population became infected was right and the UK developed “herd immunity”.

At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy.

Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.

At the Sage meeting on March 12, a moment now dubbed the “Domoscene conversion”,

Cummings changed his mind.
In this “penny-drop moment”, he realised he had helped set a course for catastrophe.

Until this point, the rise in British infections had been below the European average.
Now they were above it and on course to emulate Italy, where the picture was bleak.

A minister said:
“Seeing what was happening in Italy was the galvanising force across government.”

By Friday, March 13, Cummings had become the most outspoken advocate of a tough crackdown.

“Dominic himself had a conversion,”
a senior Tory said.

“He’s gone from ‘herd immunity and let the old people die’,
to
‘let’s shut down the country and the economy.’”

Cummings had a “meeting of minds” with Matt Hancock, the health secretary,
who wanted stronger action to prevent NHS hospitals being swamped.
.......
Johnson had also been queasy about the previous original approach.

“Boris hated the language of ‘herd immunity’ because it implied that it was OK for people to die,”
a senior source said.
“Matt hated the language because it implied we had given up.
You’ve got to fight.”
.....
But when Johnson gathered his key advisers in the cabinet room at 9.15am last Saturday
there was unanimity.

Whitty and Vallance explained that Britain had been four weeks behind Italy “and now we are closer”.

The two experts, together with Hancock and Cummings, all delivered to Johnson one message:
“Now is the moment to act.”

The prime minister agreed:
“We must work around the clock and take all necessary measures.”

One of those present said:
“The mood in the room was astonishing.
You could tell that something very significant had shifted.”
.....
Whitty and Vallance began their own press conferences at the end of the week amid concern that some of Johnson’s pronouncements

  • including a claim that they could “turn the tide” within 12 weeks -
were not grounded in evidence.

“Some of the experts are appalled by some of his claims,” a Whitehall source said.
.....
Another senior Tory said: “Boris is shellshocked.”
......
“Boris and his team are absolutely terrified because it will not be the NHS by end of this,”
a Whitehall source said.

“It will be the* corona health service and will just be there to pump oxygen into patients.”*

Cohle · 01/04/2020 22:36

I don't know enough about transmission rates etc to know if this is a good idea or not!

Then why are you pontificating about it on the internet?

Do you think you're somehow raising points that haven't occurred to the government?

istherelifeafter40 · 01/04/2020 22:40

BigChoc Do you really think this is the "truth" as in this is exactly how it happened, and not a narrative specifically designed for media?

minipie · 01/04/2020 22:42

Yes I see what you mean BigChocFrenzy re foreign travel. Both countries would have to have reached a similar and high level of herd immunity to allow travel between them.

CheriLittlebottom · 01/04/2020 22:44

Because it's an interesting discussion to have?

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