Disabled people were to be denied ventilators

[Moomin8]

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/coronavirus-guidelines-u-turn-after-17992694

I have an autistic daughter in a care home and this made my blood run cold.

Why does it take a long time to recover from being on a ventilator? I'm sorry to be ignorant I don't know much about this.

Also. Anyone with severe pneumonia- will this affect their lungs for life? I never knew about this.

@Tolleshunt It was in A&E and you treat patients as emergencies so all the interventions were to save her life. We don't stop treating if they ask us to as at that time they are considered emotionally unstable because of their pain and blood loss. It's only when you are in a stable situation, would you write up a 'do not resuscitate'. I only saw her going up to the endoscopy lab, as my bit was done then.

If you had the most excruciating abdo pain on the planet and were begging someone to kill you we wouldn't, I promise. 🤣

Well. Now my blood has run cold. My DS is 19 and has autism.

@TheLadyAnneNeville it's scary isn't it? I have an 18 year old dd with autism. Actually I have autism myself as well 😬

@Moomin8 You can get lung damage from pneumonia but equally you might not.
If you are seriously ill, it takes a long time to fully recover, much longer than healthy people realise. So it can be many months or even up to a year before you fully recover. You may be back at work well before then, but by fully recover I mean being able to be as physically active as you might be.
Some people will be left with lung damage, some may just take a long time to recover.

You usually recover fully after pneumonia and return to normal after coming off a ventilator. Not immediately of course, but previously healthy people don't have an issue. It's people with already knackered lungs who suffer longer term consequences. It's rare for respiratory illness to actually damage the lungs if it's straightforward like Coronavirus.

One of my DC uses a bipap ventilator through a tracheostomy anyway. He still has an excellent quality of life, very active, goes to playgroups, soft play etc. If it is thought that the people who stand the most chance of being weaned off of ventilation should get the ventilators this would mean my DC’s ventilator being taken away and given to somebody else. Every life holds value, we should not reduce people to numbers based on what others consider their quality of life to be!

Pneumonia can cause scarring of the lungs but actually people who were previously healthy tend to bounce back remarkably well after pneumonia, I k ow nothing specific to Covid though. Being intubated and ventilated can actually cause pneumonia, it can cause muscle wastage and problems with speech too.

@Moomin8. Me too. Late diagnosis. The horror of this is that it’s what I expected. And, it will happen. A culling of those not deemed “useful”.

goldpartyhat

You might want to refresh your legal knowledge because you just described participating in a criminal assault.

Jesus Christ.
Both my kids have Autism.
I am physically disabled.
So, that's us fucked if we get a bad dose then?

Sadly it is about perceived 'use', independence and 'worth', certainly, not just likely survival and recovery rates. It always has been. It's not a new thing with this virus.

That section in the legislation is mostly to cover doctors who will be working outside their specialties and will be making mistakes because of it. If it wasn’t there basically no new Doctors would move to treat coronavirus patients unless it was their existing specialty. It’s to cover for the lower standard of care that will be offered.

I know. There was a shocking case of a child with learning disabilities left to die by hospital staff last year because their life was perceived to have no value.

Ah, ok, goldpartyhat, thats makes sense. I can see why things are done that way. I remember just wanting to die when I had appendicitis - anything to make the pain stop ASAP.

Sadly it is about perceived 'use', independence and 'worth', certainly, not just likely survival and recovery rates. It always has been. It's not a new thing with this virus.

I know. There was a shocking case of a child with learning disabilities left to die by hospital staff last year because their life was perceived to have no value.

Sorry, pressed post too soon. I wanted to say how shocked and upset I am at this.

In my family 2 out of 4 of us have significant respiratory disease, although we are not "shielded". We are all self isolating and I am planning for us not to go out in the next 4 weeks, thankfully we have deliveries coming in. I think it is much better not to get this virus than to end up in a queue of some sort for the available ventilators.

The other thing is that even in people who get a ventilator, a significant number do not survive ventilation. Even around 25% ventilated under 50 years old do not survive.

Fucking hell. I feel sick just at the thought someone ever thought that was acceptable

The situation that we have is that we do not have enough ventilators, not enough staff and probably still not enough beds.

This is a political situation for which people have voted (landslide Conservative victory anyone).

Can I assure everyone that doctors do not want to deny anyone treatment. However, in the absence of enough resources, they have no choice but to make the best decisions they can, in very difficult circumstances and the changes in the law will support their attempts to work through a horrible situation that no one in healthcare would want.

Apparently we aren't supposed to discuss PPE, and that is a different issue, with some related themes.

I completely agree that people who voted conservative have to bear some responsibility as the Tories have decimated the NHS over the last 10 years and people shrugged their shoulders and voted them in again.

Whatever argument people put forward about Tony Blair and PFI, there is no denying that there have been enormous cuts to what the NHS can provide. And the U.K. is going to see more deaths from this virus as a result. Which is why they are now buying space in private hospitals.

I don’t know what people expect. According to some modelling there will be between 10 and 100 people for every ventilator.

There has to be national guidelines because it can’t be down to individual clinicians!

So what SHOULD they be, if not most likely to benefit?

Years and Years is starting to look more and more like a documentary .............by the day!

Agree that the Conservatives bear a large part of the blame of this - and those who voted them in.

In addition to the woefully inadequate provision of ventilators and ICU beds - brought to the government’s attention but ignored m when a pandemic was war-gamed four years ago, let’s not forget - they also had the nerve to try to present our lamentable capacity for testing as a thought-through deliberate strategy. As opposed to the reality, which is that they have decimated the labs to the point where we now apparently have a sum total of three people with the ability to perform testing for the whole country.

And the worst of it is they’ll most likely get away with it, if they promise to keep income tax a penny lower than the other side do.

@Tolleshunt quite!