Disabled people were to be denied ventilators

[Moomin8]

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/coronavirus-guidelines-u-turn-after-17992694

I have an autistic daughter in a care home and this made my blood run cold.

Moomin8

That the coronavirus act 2020 allows for DR'S should they need to, decide on who to treat and they will not face liability.

Please read the act and read it for yourself

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/contents/enacted/data.htm

Indemnity for health service activity?

Let's try and keep a sense of perspective. As awful as these guidelines are, they will only come into force as a last resort, if every single bed was filled by someone thought to have a good chance of survival. It's unlikely this will actually happen.

They are guidelines on what to do in the absolute worst case scenario. None of this is a certainty. We can all do our bit to make sure we don't get there.

Indemnity for health service activity?

So they cannot be sued.

People have talked a lot about the fact that some people could be denied ventilators if there were not enough. But that's not quite the same thing as saying 'let's not bother treating autistic people'

However, I see your point that if people are made unaccountable for their actions from the start you can't trust that you are in safe hands. 😬

They have clarified this advice. It wasn't intended for learning disabled or physically disabled, but very frail people, with serious co morbidities, who would never come off the ventilator if they went on.

ink
I work in general practice. We have been asked to work our way through our practice list and update every patient's frailty score asap. The system does it at the click of a button taking into account, age, medications, medical conditions etc.

WOW
This is awful
Really sad

@viscious - I was asking if that's the part of the act the pp was referring to...

I once looked after a very frail old lady who had rheumatoid arthritis (a very painful condition) was on lots of medication, came in with a bowel bleed. We treated her aggressively (that means everything that could be done was done, not that we were mean!). All the while she was begging us not to treat her. She wanted to die, she'd had enough pain and distress. The treatment involved colonoscopy, blood transfusion, multiple injections and cannulas. I kept apologising and explaining we could do nothing without a prior DNR. I felt awful, she felt awful, we all felt dreadful.

I don't think frailty scores were around then but she would still have been treated. To ventilate or not is a decision reached with much discussion normally, and ventilating someone who will never ever come off and live, is something that shouldn't be done regardless of resources.

goldpartyhat I don’t understand why the patient’s lack of consent and autonomy were overridden in that circumstance. Had she been sectioned? If not, why did she simply not consent to eg a colonoscopy? Or why was her refusal to consent ignored?

These scenarios make me scared and deeply upset. My DH has asthma and CoPD. On paper his chances look bad. In reality he’s a tough old bugger who will probably outlast us all. He’s also a father to our 4 year old. If he weren’t to be given a fighting chance I don’t know what I’d do. We have been strictly isolating for a while now.

So, is this legislation essentially going to mean that doctors are never going to be accountable for their actions in the future if they decide not to treat someone?

If so that's a very slippery and concerning slope.

To be honest, I wouldn’t peg the daily post as an accurate source of information

^^This

We have long been aware of this downright disability discrimination. It is one of the reasons why our vulnerable loved one is being shielded, although not classed as extremely vulnerable to Covid-19, at least according to the government's latest list. It's heartbreaking and gut wrenching, and unsurprising because it sadly mirrors what we experience on a daily basis about society, services and the government's attitudes to disability.

It was terrifying.

My ds has a rare neuromuscular condition and ASD. I was petrified they'd consider him under the can't manage without support group. He's only 15! He's also highly intelligent and predicted some 8/9 in GCSEs this year - had they not been cancelled.

So no he can't do some independent tasks - but he can do so much that would be useful to this country. He's wanting to go into the police force for cyber security. He'd be amazing at it!

I think many here are missing the point, this only applies if there's a shortage, there isn't at present. If they need to choose they will pick those most likely to recover

But having autism by itself, for example would not make someone less likely to recover.

Moomin8 and whom ever else is interested,
I'm sure most of us are at home so please read through the Act yourself. I've included the link up thread.
Read, read, read!

I read it

My friend is saying it's been included to cover newly qualified doctors and nurses?

Every day they make decisions whether to try to save someone who probably won't survive so opt for palliative care or whether they can save someone who will survive. They do this every single day, you just don't hear about it. They cannot save everyone.
The situation regarding Covid 19 would I should imagine be anyone over 65 with severe COPD, or other severe underlying conditions and over 70 s with a low chance of survival. This illness if severe and you survive leaves you with 30% less lung capacity for life. It makes sense that some people who already have severe breathing difficulties would not survive anyway or severe heart trouble etc. With lack of ventilators and more needing them these choices will have to be made. They cannot save all and someone ( poor souls) have to be the ones to decide. It's a fact of life I'm afraid as sad as that is.

This illness if severe and you survive leaves you with 30% less lung capacity for life.

Just out of interest where does this statistic come from? As this is a new virus and long term consequences are not yet clear.

That is a made up statistic. No one knows this yet.

I know someone who has been confirmed to have corona, who was never hospitalised, and still 5 weeks later gets very breathless. If you have been on a ventilator, it will take you a long time to recover.
Some may be left with long term lung damage, but no one knows how many people.

And you know that people in China survived who were in their 90s and put on ventilators. They would not have if they lived in the UK.

If you get the severe aspect of this disease (ARDS) then yes, your lung capacity will be affected for life. It's a terrible condition that will effectively leave you disabled as far as your respiratory system is concerned.