Should the Government be handing out free doses of Vitamin D NOW?

[LWJ70]

I have recently discovered (from reading very new scientific abstracts) that low Vit D levels leave us more prone to respiratory tract viruses. Most people only associate it with a healthy skeleton. After a long, cold winter, millions of us could be slightly deficient. Our most vulnerable section of society is unable to make use of the sunlight, which is beneficial.Could this explain the greatly differing pathways of coronavirus throughout the globe? Read these abstracts:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30675873
clinmedjournals.org/article...ases-and-epidemiology-jide-3-030.php?jid=jide

Difficult to decipher the abstract's stats without looking at the full paper. It is a summary from 25 previous studies with a grand total of 11,321 participants. It is published by US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health with a big participation from the Centre for Primary Care and Public Health, Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry, Queen Mary University of London.

One thing is clear though:

''Vitamin D supplementation was safe, and it protected against ARIs overall. Very deficient individuals ................... experienced the benefit.

(ARI = acute respiratory infections)

I am amazed why this info is not being published in the wider public domain. Instead we have celebrity workouts, toilet rolls and memes.

Elderly people in sunny climates are probably not aware that they have afforded themselves a greater fighting chance to survive coronavirus.

There are 5.4 million people in the UK above the age of 75 years. The majority of them are locked in their houses (or they would prefer to be). If they leave their houses to buy vitamin supplements from a pharmacist, they could be exposed to the coronavirus. This is not far-fetched- a coronavirus can survive nine days or more on plastic/metal surfaces. Many parts of the UK are at a perfect temperature now for viral stability. If two thirds of infected people are asymptomatic, the infection is already everywhere.

My point is, why doesn't the NHS select the most vulnerable and make a mass delivery of Vit D or a broad spectrum of supplements?

This is an easy but excellent read to explain what D actually does and how it is made in the kidneys via the skin/sunlight.

It’s partly interesting in light of the current pandemic and what is says about immunity, obesity etc....

None of my cereal (oatibix) coover or milk or oj are fortified.
But i think there is some in milk.
Not sure i but i think some Black people dont have milk as dont digest it as adults.
Akso i think a lot of people have moved away from eating a lot of eggs as a meal (obv in cakes etc though).

Im very fair (dad redhead) and although i dont burn that easily ive already managed it this week. And its only april. If you are fair it is actually quite hard to do this and not burn.
Also nursery and school mandate suntan lotion (uk) before school all summer term. So only time you can get any midday sun without any on is on weekends. As a child i never needed it in uk at school except perhaps sports day. But school are right and my kids do in SWest as they would burn, but only on some days.

I would research what percebtage of care home residents (and elderly at home in uk) are deficient.

But imo it might make sense for carers of elderly and gp/hospital drs to wear masks long term as they are likely spreading infections everywhere and killing off our elderly with flu every year. Now i know some germs are a good thing but seems like we can all get them from church/supermarket etc

You make good points @keepdistance

I think in our ancestral past people will have eaten more eggs, fish, meat, liver etc and been outdoors more.

And yes I’m fair too and can burn easily. It’s about finding that fine balance between getting some sun on your skin and not getting close to burning. Harder for us frecklies I agree! That’s why pale skinned people only really need 15 minutes whereas someone of South Asian origin or a person with black skin may need a lot more to get a proper ‘dose’.

It’s tricky because all we’ve heard for the past 35+ years is slap on the sun cream and avoid the sun at all costs to avoid skin cancer but I do wonder if this has had the knock on effect on general health. If you look at the aspects of health that Vit D helps with it really is crucial for most things! Notably, bone health, heart health, respiratory health, brain health (implicated in Alzheimer’s and Dementia), immunity and obesity.

And this then loops back to Covid 19....

Twenty minutes outdoors with bare arms on a daily basis. You can also buy a Vit D spray. No I don’t think this is a government duty to provide.

I think it's cheaper surely to provide supplements or fortify than pay for skin cancer treatment or presently ICU care/ward care?
Also you could argue that many of us have probably had compliants caused by low vit d but a test isnt included in our bloods to make us aware of it.
Who knows what other conditions fortifying might reduce? MS. /t2 diabetes?

Also it said about mushrooms needing to be grown in sunlight to get the vitamins, so does that also reflect on say battery farmed eggs?

Article in the Scottish newspaper The National today:

'SENIOR medics and experts have renewed an appeal for vitamin D to be distributed to groups of people who appear to be at a higher risk of becoming critically ill or dying if they catch the coronavirus.

In an open letter, published in The National today, Barbara Boucher, Honorary Professor of Medicine at the Blizard Institute at Queen Mary University of London, joined Dr Peter Cobbold, Emeritus Professor, University of Liverpool and Helga Rhein, a retired GP in Edinburgh and others call for supplements to be given to the elderly, carers, night-shift workers and members of BAME communities in the UK who are more likely to have low levels of the nutrient.

It has been sent to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, Health Secretary Jeane Freeman and interim CMO Dr Gregor Smtih, as well as their counterparts in the rest of the UK.'

“The high risk groups are those occupationally exposed to the virus including frontline health care workers, carers, BAME communities, those who are house bound, in residential care or night-shift workers. Those furthest north [Scotland] have additional risks of deficiency due to latitude.

“Vitamin D3 is cheap ... no new checks would be necessary for its distribution as a matter of urgency.”

www.thenational.scot/news/18385471.medics-fresh-call-provide-vitamin-d-need/

I wonder when Public Health England is going to mention this in their daily briefings.

To an large extent I agree @fluffiphlox

Could be something to supply to care homes though.

The only issue here is education about health. I read a LOT about nutrition, good health etc but most in the uk don’t. From posts on here and another thread about why more BAME people are dying, it appears that many many people don’t know about Vit D deficiency and how common it is. This is old news to me.

Whilst I don’t think the government should necessarily give free vitamin D to everyone, I do think they have a duty to educate people.

Health is wealth and until it comes under threat, most people take it for granted, rightly or wrongly. As much as I hate living through a pandemic, my hope for lots of people in the UK is that (they survive obviously!) they now start to take health more seriously and not see people like me who harp on and on about the harmful effects of sugar, processed food, benefits of vitamins etc etc etc as boring hippy types.

I’m a mum of a transplant child so I’ve experienced first hand, up close how devastating it is to not have your health. I’ve made it my mission to keep her and the rest of the family as healthy as possible. It’s actually really simple.

That sounds good.
Only caveat is i think they need to boost production of it. As otherwise noone will be able to buy it like the panic buying on everything else.
Already boots/asda etc you cant get high strength stuff.
A more detailed time for how long different skin types need to be in the sun would help too.

Dp for example burns so easily (through clouds even) he literally would probably burn in less than the 15min.
So they need to look at sourcing it. Maybe more cod liver oil?

Also if you think eg new york even if you are walking about all the tall buildings shade you.

Very interesting indeed @LWJ70

I still think sunlight is the best way. Your body regulates how much you personally need if exposed to sunlight (obviously don’t burn). The problem with supplements is your body apparently struggles to modify it if you take in too much. I’ve read that it starts to shuttle it to places you don’t really want it such as your arteries which can then calcify. Not what you want. If tests were readily available then maybe that wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP. I would not be surprised if low levels of vitD had a lot to do with things.

I found out I was very deficient in VitD in Dec last year, my level was only 23, when it should be over 80. I have felt rotten for ages - no energy, depressed and achey, plus I was prone to coughs and colds. Been taking 5000iui gel caps since then and I feel SO much better. My level is now up to 55. Like others have said its important to take it with cofactors K2 and boron is also useful. I also found my b12 levels have rocketed since taking D3 (they were low before)

Since virus outbreak I've upped my dose to 10,000iui D3 daily for a boost. I've also stocked up on vitamin C powder in case I do get this virus, as I'd rather have it at the ready. I'd recommend this too!

Uk doctors only have half a days training on vitamin & mineral deficiency . It is given very little regard here. The blood range satisfactory limits also start very low and do not represent what is an optimal level to be healthy. For example the ferritin range is normally 12-160 in the U.K. If your blood result comes back as 12, your go says fine your in range when really it needs to be 70-90 for a women to be healthy. The same with vit D. All are levels are based on what level is needed to prevent rickets, not what is needed to be healthy. A good healthy target blood range is actually 150nmol/L , whereas your dr will say a blood test result >50nmol/L is satisfactory - a huge difference.
This is a link from the BMJ in 2005
www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/recommended-allowance-amp-normal-range-vitamin-d

There's a bit of a circular relationship between vitamin d and magnesium.
It causes magnesium to be used more efficiently which can then lead to magnesium deficiency.
Magnesium is needed in making vitamin d.
So we should really be supplementing that too, of not getting enough green veg in our diets.
betteryou.com/health-hub/magnesium-vitamin-d-benefits-dosages-types-supplements/#vitamind2

fedup, my view too - one reason I have done the strip down just to knickers April to Oct for every sunny day in the garden for about 20 mins with no sun cream. Whether that is why I have seen my GP once in 15 years and only had 2 colds in the last two years I don't know but I have never been as well (and I am 50s female which does not tend to be that healthy a decade for lost of women). May just be luck and nothing to do with vit D from direct sun.

(I don't take any supplements but eat a lot of veg etc and currently no processed food)

@coronade

I agree, I think Germany has a much better media output for vitamin D3 knowledge and they consume twice as much as UK adults. Spain has the lowest daily consumption of D3.

Even Medical Associations can't agree on RDD and there was even a statistical error which reduced this a few years ago.

Surprisingly the main NHS website does not detail the (or even mention) the role vitamin D3 has in relation to the immune system - it only talks about rickets!
www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/

You have to search around for any mention of immune system.

I would also expect a significant majority of elderly people, especially those in carehomes, to be vitamin D deficient. They spend very little time outside and tend to have most of their skin covered up when they do. I know my mum is, she has broken her hip, pelvis and shoulder in the last year. Every time she’s in hospital they put her on vitamin D but only for a short period. Once back in the carehome this stops.

Also some people ( like me) find that they can’t digest Vitamin Tablets then so have to take a Vitamin type spray . In fact a lot of people can’t but don’t realise this so they can be taking them and the tablets are not actually working .
I had bariatric surgery several years ago and while it worked because I lost a lot of weight I became very deficient in vitamin B12 and Iron and was suffering from PA
This meant I was incredibly tired and in constant chronic pain and always getting headaches colds and sore throats something I never really suffered from before . I used to get a sore or irritating throat and mild cold it seemed every other month.

My friend who had gallstone surgery suffered the same symptoms anyone I think from memory who’s had any type of stomach surgery Is likely to not be able to digest tablet type vitamins

I take 2 types of vitamin D spray a B12 spray and liquid iron spray
I also take vitaminC and k2 tablets and Galfur liquid iron 3 times a week
I also self inject B12 every month
Since I have been doing this I maybe get one cold / sore throat a year and I feel loads better with lots more energy
I’m always out in the sunshine at every opportunity even though I have quite dark skin

@LWJ70

I am totally behind the Vit D hypothesis but there are so many other factors, which is why I was pointing to the obesity issue too.

I think when someone has metabolic disease (from obesity) then the absorption of Vit D is compromised [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31323907]]

And on the BAME issue, diet then comes into play because the rates of obesity are higher in these groups www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3105461/ and so the two interplay. You need to be in good shape metabolically to absorb the Vit D, and BAME groups already need more Vit D because of skin colour etc. so perhaps a double edged sword.

Bump

@hamstersarse
You need to be in good shape metabolically to absorb the Vit D, and BAME groups

I agree -see my post above . I had bariatric surgery several years ago which meant my ability to eat certain stuff was severely restricted so that I became very deficient in vitamins which resulted in a bad time for about a year or more for me with constant colds sore throats and Severe chronic fatigue
It’s pretty much 100 percent better now mainly through taken a shit load of liquid type vitamin sprays

Such interesting discussions! I’m such a health nerd, I love that I’ve found some people to talk to about it. Most people in real life write me off as a weird hippy lol. Saying that I’ve got my parents (in their 60s) on Vit D/K spray finally.

Thank you LWJ70. Very interesting and all the links Read and very much appreciated. Have a 15 yr old ds who takes adult multi vitamins, with 5mcg/200 iu of vit d and wondering whether to give him extra vitamin d? If so what dose for a teen...

Dh takes 1000 iu a day for depression, prescribed after blood test for something else showed massively low levels. He had huge dose for a month and then advised to take 1000 iu daily. Wonder if low levels Of vit d In the wider population may also have contributed to rising levels Of depression alongside all else mentioned here.

Love the idea that a silver lining to covid will lead to a massive rethinking of how we all live and structure our societies. Perhaps part of that would be a wider public health and information campaign, Teaching the nation to eat and cook properly, which would be Healthy and preventative, but also cheaper For families if price of food is to rise as well.

Op if there is sufficient proof of vitamin d then I agree, why not get the gov to pay for it and distribute it. Way cheaper Initiative than oxygen machines and furlough let alone the human impact of so many people dying and losing loved ones.

@Nunchukninja
Love the idea that a silver lining to covid will lead to a massive rethinking of how we all live and structure our societies. Perhaps part of that would be a wider public health and information campaign, Teaching the nation to eat and cook properly, which would be Healthy and preventative, but also cheaper For families if price of food is to rise as well.

I love this. Jamie Oliver tried to do this several times but I think people might be more open to it after this. I hope so. So many of the big killers are preventable.

Sorry I meant to bold your words in the top paragraph.

Yes it would be great if people cooked and ate more healthily but you’ve only got to look at some of the posts on MN to see that many people enjoy the crap they eat and are very defensive if you criticise it.

That’s good @fedupfrieda. Let’s do it! Think in Macro Health Economics terms preventable is absolutely the way to go. Cooking, Vitamins and Minerals, exercise, (don’t get me going on sell-off if school playing fields and poor amount time given to exercise). All makes so much sense. I grew up spending a lot of time with grandparents born before ww1 and www parents. They never wasted a thing, had amazing frugal recipes, they sewed, wore clothes TIL they wore out and then mended them, grew Fruit and veg, composted, Etc etc.