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Coronavirus may have infected half of UK population — Oxford study

347 replies

Lycidas · 24/03/2020 18:12

‘New epidemiological model shows vast majority of people suffer little or no illness.’

www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

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“The research presents a very different view of the epidemic to the modelling at Imperial College London, which has strongly influenced government policy. “I am surprised that there has been such unqualified acceptance of the Imperial model,” said Prof Gupta.

However, she was reluctant to criticise the government for shutting down the country to suppress viral spread, because the accuracy of the Oxford model has not yet been confirmed and, even if it is correct, social distancing will reduce the number of people becoming seriously ill and relieve severe pressure on the NHS during the peak of the epidemic.”

A glimmer of hope. They’re gonna start with the antibody testing very soon.

OP posts:
Somerville · 25/03/2020 00:09

Have any of you had Covid-19? I’m just recovering, and I felt so utterly shit that I find it hard to believe that a huge number of people are entirely asymptomatic. I’m in a family of 6 and despite varying degrees of illness, we all had noticeable, unpleasant symptoms - bad enough thats we’d have had to miss work/school if not already in lockdown.

Barracker · 25/03/2020 00:23

Sorry to hear that, Somerville. Flowers

Hope you are all recovering well. I desperately hope that lasting immunity is conferred by having the disease.

Mydogdoesntlisten · 25/03/2020 00:26

Somerville, I have read reports of people who have tested positive (from one of the affected cruise ships) who were entirely asymptomatic. Also, there was a man speaking on radio 4, I think, who described one day of fever although he could still get up etc. and no other symptoms. He had also tested positive.
Yet there was another, again on the radio but I can't remember which channel, who I think was quite young and healthy and who said he had never felt as ill before. He progressed to pneumonia. (I think I am reporting this correctly but may not be).
Assuming this is correct, it would seem very variable.

Branster · 25/03/2020 00:28

Very interesting thread and am grateful to all who took the time to contribute here, it is very useful to see a sensible measured knowledgeable debate.
I’ve started reading this half an hour ago. Can you all please stop posting until tomorrow morning. I really, really, really, really need a pee and have to go to sleep I’m tired but I don’t want to miss out. A bit like a 5 year old... Night night

HopeClearwater · 25/03/2020 00:48

@Somerville were you tested? You definitely had it?

Katie2017 · 25/03/2020 01:25

@Branster thanks for the explanation that makes sense. Been reading up on pandemics and this got me wondering why it had not really been implemented before in so many countries. Hopefully it works!

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 05:44

Beijing there will be deaths. Are you as distant to the prospect it being you or someone you love as other people are the deaths of the starving in another country?

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 05:55

Somerville good post. It’s just speculation until they can test antibodies. No one on here on the side of no lockdown knows they just want it to fit with what they want. Which is pretty pointless.

MarginalGain · 25/03/2020 05:56

Have any of you had Covid-19? I’m just recovering, and I felt so utterly shit that I find it hard to believe that a huge number of people are entirely asymptomatic. I’m in a family of 6 and despite varying degrees of illness, we all had noticeable, unpleasant symptoms - bad enough thats we’d have had to miss work/school if not already in lockdown.

Hope you feel better soon.

Re: the Diamond Princess
www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/03/18/what-percentage-have-covid-19-coronavirus-but-do-not-know-it/#1cbf2e8a7e90

Once data from this cruise was made publicly available, the research team statistically modeled the ship out of it. The researchers had to use statistical models to fill in some of the gaps in the data. For example, not all passengers ended being tested for SARS-CoV2 as only 3,063 tests were done. Their analyses estimated that 17.9% of those infected had remained asymptomatic throughout with a 95% credible interval for this number of 15.5% to 20.2%.

MarginalGain · 25/03/2020 05:59

No one on here on the side of no lockdown knows they just want it to fit with what they want.

Is there anyone on this thread suggesting no lockdown?

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 06:01

I don’t know are they. JaneEyre are you?

Hazelnutlatteplease · 25/03/2020 06:23

From the cruise ships people were taken to still very underwhelmed health services highly prepared with sufficient ventilators.

If you can ventilate everyone who needs ventilating you can get results like china and the cruise ships.

But

Population of uk 66 440 000. 80% infections rate leaves 58 467 200 infected.

Collateral damage (the only 3% death rate from china after extensive community testing) 1 520 147 deaths.

That leaves the 15% that "only" need oxygen to survive. 8 770 080 people in need of ventilation for up to 3 weeks. We had 4000 ventilators, 11000 once we close the theatres.

If "only" 60% of the population get it only
1 195 920 people will die. If we get oxygen to the nearly 6 million who need it they will survive. 11000 ventilators remember.

Incidentally the death toll at Auschwitz was about 1.1 million so about the same as 60% infection rate if we save all those in need of ventilation. That was considered a war crime.

We havent even begun to assess permanent lung damage done to the "mild" cases. 20-30% reduced lung capacity.

But yes of course because about 80% of people get it mildly that means we shouldn't worry HmmHmm.

Hazelnutlatteplease · 25/03/2020 06:27

Thats assuming you cant get it twice of course. Theres actually no confirmation of that yet

Ponoka7 · 25/03/2020 06:41

For anyone who thinks it's nothing and "everyone's got to die of something". The NHS are looking for volunteers. As well as other places. Go and see the effects, first hand.

You can focus on death, but being on a ventilator isn't fun. I was on oxygen for pneumonia for two weeks, that wasn't great either.

The issue is that this virus is pot luck, that's scary, if you don't want your life to end, your children would be in Foster care if you had a long spell in hospital, it would end your quality of life (because of the permanent lung damage) etc, or you don't want a lot of people to die before their time (which in the develped world we aren't used to) then this is something to be concerned about.

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 06:43

There’s a few threads on the reality of what NHS are facing, worth looking at. And yes volunteering if you’re feeling immune.

HanaHeya · 25/03/2020 06:58

Following this with great interest. I’ve also done quite a bit of statistical modelling and what I like about this is that it presents a totally different angle based on spread before interventions which is really important. I suspect like with many of these cases, the true answer will comprise assumptions that have proved to be correct from several different studies, particularly where one of them could have a greater influence than others on the outcome. So the benefit of this work is that it helps us to empirically challenge or confirm assumptions made in other studies to date whilst also presenting alternatives. The one thing for certain is that we haven’t found the actual answer yet, predominantly as this study says, because of testing.

MarginalGain · 25/03/2020 07:06

From New Scientist

With more than 380,000 confirmed cases worldwide, one thing is clear about the new coronavirus: it is very good at infecting people. Now studies are starting to reveal just how infectious it is – and when a person with covid-19 is most likely to spread the virus.

While we know some people are more vulnerable to the virus than others, it is capable of putting a healthy adult of any age into a critical condition and in need of intensive care. However, the virus can also be asymptomatic, causing no noticeable illness in some people. Such cases were first recognised in China in January (Science China Life Sciences, doi.org/dqbn), but it wasn’t known how common they were.

Research published last week by Jeffrey Shaman of Columbia University in New York and his colleagues analysed the course of the epidemic in 375 Chinese cities between 10 January, when the epidemic took off, and 23 January, when containment measures such as travel restrictions were imposed.

The study concluded that 86 per cent of cases were “undocumented” – that is, asymptomatic or had only very mild symptoms (Science, doi.org/ggn6c2). The researchers also analysed case data from foreign nationals who were evacuated from the city of Wuhan, where the first cases were seen, and found a similar proportion of asymptomatic or very mild cases.

Such undocumented cases are still contagious and the study found them to be the source of most of the virus’s spread in China before the restrictions came in. Even though these people were only 55 per cent as contagious as people with symptoms, the study found that they were the source of 79 per cent of further infections, due to there being more of them, and the higher likelihood that they were out and about.

“If somebody’s experiencing mild symptoms, and I think most of us can relate to this, we’re still going to go about our day,” says Shaman. “These people are the major driver of it and they’re the ones who facilitated the spread.”

Read more: We’re beginning to understand the biology of the covid-19 virus
A project in Italy has also found many symptomless cases. When everybody was tested in a town called Vò, one of the hardest-hit in the country, 60 per cent of people who tested positive were found to have no symptoms.

That is lower than the number found in China but is in the same ballpark, says Shaman. “It might be one in 10 in some societies versus one in five in others, but generally you’re looking at about an order of magnitude more cases than have been confirmed,” he says.

For most people who do fall ill, symptoms are usually mild and develop slowly, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While many have heard that a cough, fever, shortness of breath and fatigue can be signs of covid-19, the condition’s symptoms can also include a runny or stuffy nose, sore throat, headache, muscle pain, diarrhoea, nausea and vomiting.

Of those who get ill, 19 per cent enter a severe or critical condition, usually with pneumonia. The mortality rate varies depending on a number of factors, such as a population’s average age, the state of a country’s healthcare system and the extent to which mild cases are identified and counted. A study last week estimated that 1.4 per cent of symptomatic cases in Wuhan died (Nature Medicine, doi.org/dqbq).

It is rarer for children to develop serious disease, but it is a myth that young, healthy adults don’t. “There are some young people who have ended up in intensive care,” said the UK government’s chief medical adviser, Chris Whitty, at a briefing on 19 March.

Once someone is infected, the incubation period is usually between two and 14 days, with half of cases showing symptoms before the sixth day (Annals of Internal Medicine, doi.org/dph3). However, this was calculated by studying 181 confirmed cases, meaning it is unlikely to have taken very mild and asymptomatic cases into account.

Read more: How soon will we have a coronavirus vaccine? The race against covid-19
Even people who develop symptoms are at risk of unwittingly spreading the virus. A study in China suggests that infectiousness starts about 2.5 days before the onset of symptoms, and peaks 15 hours before (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbr).

We know that coughs and sneezes spread the virus, so how is it possible for asymptomatic people to spread the infection?

People with mild or no symptoms can have a very high viral load in their upper respiratory tracts, meaning they can shed the virus through spitting, touching their mouths or noses and then a surface, or possibly talking. Even people who don’t feel ill occasionally cough or sneeze.

Once symptoms develop, a person’s viral load declines steadily, and they become increasingly less infectious. However, people appear to keep shedding the virus for around two weeks after they recover from covid-19, both in their saliva and stools (medRxiv, doi.org/dqbs). This means that even once a person’s symptoms have cleared, it may still be possible to infect other people.

Airborne droplets are likely to be the main infection route, but contaminated surfaces could play a role too. Health advice typically says the virus can persist for about 2 hours on surfaces, says William Keevil at the University of Southampton, UK.

But a study published last week suggests that this is a serious underestimate, with viable virus surviving on cardboard for 14 hours and plastic and stainless steel for up to three days (New England Journal of Medicine, doi.org/ggn88w). It can also hang around in the air for at least 3 hours.

“Survival of coronaviruses for days on touch surfaces is a hygiene risk,” says Keevil. “It is difficult to avoid touching [contaminated objects or surfaces] such as door handles and push plates, bed and stair rails, public touch screens etc.”

There is also some evidence of transmission from faeces to the mouth, says Elizabeth Halloran at the University of Washington, which reinforces the importance of handwashing.

Keevil recommends regular, rigorous handwashing or using an alcohol hand gel, and avoiding touching the eyes, nose and mouth. “The latter being extremely difficult because humans are tactile and touch their faces many times an hour,” he says.

What all this makes clear is that advising only people with a cough or fever and their families to self-isolate won’t prevent the coronavirus from spreading, thanks to its fiendish ability to cause very mild symptoms in people, and to peak in infectiousness before people even realise they are sick.

Read more: www.newscientist.com/article/2238473-you-could-be-spreading-the-coronavirus-without-realising-youve-got-it/#ixzz6HgLj6kZl

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 07:10

I would greatly welcome the knowledge that I’ve had it and didn’t know. Along with many others. Brilliant.

Until we know then stop the NHS from crumbling, as it is already.

But if you are really sure it’s the case Marginal, Beijing JaneEyre, volunteer?

MarginalGain · 25/03/2020 07:15

I am signed up for the NHS volunteer register, along with my 17 year old.

MarshaBradyo · 25/03/2020 07:16

Brilliant. I hope it’s not long to use people.

MarginalGain · 25/03/2020 07:18

I have a valid DBS so perhaps I'll be called up pretty quickly.

Bool · 25/03/2020 07:29

I have known several people who work together regularly who have had varying symptoms. Fits with the new scientist article above and also explains why this virus is so efficient at spreading.

From most severe to least:

28 year old who needed oxygen last week and had every symptom and is now day 11 and about over it

  • 35 year old who needed an inhaler and had every symptom and is now day 9 and still up and down
  • 39 year old with fever, shortness of breath and flu symptoms
  • 52 year old who has headache, fever, cough and is now day 9
  • 13 year old who had fever, sore throat and cough for 4 days
  • 45 year old with mild cough and slight tightness of chest when climbing stairs
  • I had a mild cough for 3 weeks
  • 12 year old with nausea for 4 days. Dentist looked at her gums and said it looks like she has had a virus
  • 4 year old son and mid 30s husband of the 35 year old above have been living with her and zero symptoms

I cannot confirm it is all Covid-19 but all Ill around the same time and in regular contact. This virus is affecting people very differently and I am sure there are a lot of people with mild or no symptoms spreading it unwittingly.

Bluntness100 · 25/03/2020 07:34

I think what this thread and the varying scientific reports show is no one actually knows, there are some base facts accepted, past that it is all guess work. Educated guess work, sure, but still guess work.

If twenty percent of people who get it, need hospitalisation and could potentially die without it, then that changes the death rate significantly and makes what the government is doing both critical and correct.

They are trying to flatten the curve as they keep saying, reduce the amount of people needing hospitalisation at any given time. Because what’s the alternative, people are left to die and the death rate shoots up because that twenty percent is all sick at once?

Interestingly I clicked on the daily fail this morning and they have demonstrated what a scaremongering shower of shit they are, they have also published an article on the oxford study being discussed here , but purely used it to say half the population may have it, and left all other facts basically out of it. They simply Have used it as a headline to cause panic. Not discussed how the author is trying to say it’s not as dangerous as commonly thought.

Bool · 25/03/2020 07:35

I am still of the mind that this is an uncontainable virus that we need to gain group immunity to to stop the spread and in the meantime we protect our most vulnerable. We also need to social distance to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed so we have enough beds for those that need them.

BeijingBikini · 25/03/2020 08:07

I am going to sign up for volunteering, also have a DBS.

TBH Marsha, for me it is as far removed as starving children/sweatshop workers are to other people. I love my parents and my husband - one lives with me and the others live in the middle of nowhere and are isolating. I hardly see the rest of my family because they are abroad, and I've seen them