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Mortgage holders getting 3 months amnesty, what about RENTERS?

248 replies

ssd · 17/03/2020 17:35

Renters to get feck all.

Typical tories.

OP posts:
ScarlettBlaize · 19/03/2020 08:47

That's really short sighted. Landlords aren't made of gold and if many of the smaller ones have their properties reclaimed by the lenders there will be a housing market crash that effects everyone!

I'm a homeowner. With a huge mortgage.

Notwithstanding that, I would welcome landlords having to sell up their extra properties so that more people can afford to buy a home.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2020 09:02

Notwithstanding that, I would welcome landlords having to sell up their extra properties so that more people can afford to buy a home. Be very careful what you wish for!

It won't be that simple... it will be like the market crashes in the 90s and 2000s. Not pretty and will cause even more financial misery to everyone - including you as your house loses much of its value overnight when all those lovely BTL properties hit the market cheap!

I wouldn't wish that on anyone - having lived through housing market crashes twice I know why governments do all they can to avoid them!

GallusAlice79 · 19/03/2020 09:19

I really don't understand why people think LL's selling up will bring house prices down. LL's have been selling up for past 2/3 years due to tax changes and house prices have generally been increasing.

Furthermore, most rental properties sold are bought up by property companies who tend to charge higher rents.

Therefore the argument is incredibly flawed and not based on evidence.

In addition, I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation for where people who don't want to own properties, like young professionals and students, will live?

Or a reasonable explanation for where people who can't get mortgages will live?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2020 09:24

I really don't understand why people think LL's selling up will bring house prices down. It isn't the selling that will do it. It will be the repossessions due to lack of rental income. Not the choosing to sell but the having to sell.

So, lots of BTLs being sold cheaply as LLs try to recoup as much money as they can in as short a timescale and/or lenders dumping properties on the market to get some money back. It has a hideous knock on effect to all property prices, leaving poeple with large mortgages in huge negative equity (we had 30% loss in value).

Those of us who lived though similar have a deep and abiding fear of it happening again that probably does seem daft to anyone who has not!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2020 09:26

As for the rest of it... now really isn't the time to be wishing financial ill on people!

Therefore the argument is incredibly flawed and not based on evidence. I missed that gem! Some of us have lived through TWO housing market crashes, as home owners. We have lived experience of it! No evidence, my arse!

ValleyoftheHorses · 19/03/2020 09:27

I am a landlord.
I was thinking yesterday that if my tenant struggles I would offer half rent for 6 months.
He works for HMRC though do hopefully ok.

ScarlettBlaize · 19/03/2020 09:39

@CuriousaboutSamphire Don't know why you assume I don't remember those crashes. I wasn't a homeowner but I was an adult living independently.

House prices have slowed down in the past few years as it's become less of a cash cow to be a landlord - no bad thing. I don't see houses as money, but as homes. So it's not a question of my house 'losing much of its value' - I intend to carry on living here as long as possible. I don't have the profiteering mindset.

@GallusAlice79

In addition, I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation for where people who don't want to own properties, like young professionals and students, will live? Or a reasonable explanation for where people who can't get mortgages will live?

The vast majority of renters would prefer to own their homes
www.nar.realtor/newsroom/most-renters-want-to-own-a-home-lifestyle-changes-are-top-motivation-to-buy

This is a source from the USA but UK findings are similar. In this Shelter research, 85% of renters said they want to buy but can't

blog.shelter.org.uk/2012/11/guest-blog-generation-rent-still-want-to-buy/

There is absolutely no reason you can't have student housing and some other flexible, short term housing available for people who are mobile, but the reality is that for almost nine of ten people who rent, they are forced into it by circumstance - the circumstance being people who own multiple properties for the purpose of profiting from others' need for a home.

It's shit being a tenant. I don't know anyone who, other than while at university/working away on a contract, doesn't want stability and security

GallusAlice79 · 19/03/2020 10:37

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I literally have no idea what your posts mean. I am not talking about a housing crash in general, I am talking about an argument I see all the time that LL's selling up will automatically mean more people can buy. I'm pointing out that it doesn't automatically mean that. That is what I'm referring to regarding evidence - you seen to be answering something completely different.

I have no idea where you think I wished ill on people.

janeskettle · 19/03/2020 10:43

When ll's evict people for non payment of rent due to job loss or illness, where do ll's imagine those families will go?

To cheaper accomdation?

OK, so now a whole stack of people are priced out of cheaper accomodation. Where do they go?

Are ll's ready to bring back to workhouse or something, are they?

I do not know how some people sleep at night.

zsazsajuju · 19/03/2020 10:45

There is a safety net already for renters without income - housing benefit/uc housing element. There is not for payers of mortgages.

GallusAlice79 · 19/03/2020 10:46

@ScarlettBlaize

I don't doubt that the majority of tenants want to own. That doesn't negate a sizable minority of people who don't want to. Like young professional couples who aren't ready to buy together. In most cities there are hundreds of thousands of people like that.

And as I said, wanting to buy and being able to get a mortgage are two totally different things.

If people really want to increase home ownership for all, there needs to be a LOT more done than just LL's be forced into selling their properties.

I'm a LL and I'm not going to apologise for it, or pretend that it was accidental. It wasn't. However, I rent to a young professional couple who want to live in a "trendy" area that they couldn't afford to buy in. Its a lifestyle choice for them, as it was when I rented there over 10 years ago. The house prices in that area are sky high because people are paying silly money to LIVE there, not paying silly money to buy and rent out as the yield would be minimal.

I appreciate that many other tenants are in a totally different situation however I get fed up with every LL being lumped in with all slum LL's and every tenant being lumped in with all tenant paying sky high rent while wanting to buy.

There is no such thing as a typical LL or tenant.

And for the record if my tenants ran into trouble because of COVID19 I would do my upmost to help them.

GallusAlice79 · 19/03/2020 10:57

It's also not only house prices and mortgage criteria that stop people buying houses. Generally if you own a home you need savings for unexpected bills, like boilers and windows etc. and many people don't earn enough for that. That is nothing to do with the cost of buying a house.

Many young people want to pay their rent and forget about other costs. It's not as black and white as people like to make out.

janeskettle · 19/03/2020 10:58

There is a safety net already for renters without income - housing benefit/uc housing element

lol, would probably pay the rent on a cardboard box, if you can get it.

ScarlettBlaize · 19/03/2020 11:35

@janeskettle I agree, anyone who would evict a tenant in the current situation is beyond redemption.

@GallusAlice79

I'm a LL and I'm not going to apologise for it, or pretend that it was accidental. It wasn't.

You really didn't need to state this. It couldn't be more obvious from your posts.

The house prices in that area are sky high because people are paying silly money to LIVE there, not paying silly money to buy and rent out as the yield would be minimal.

I don't think you understand how capitalism works. Which is kind of ironic...

GallusAlice79 · 19/03/2020 11:39

Your post is totally pointless and adds nothing.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2020 13:02

@Gallus that's probably because you are posting about generalities, rehashing what has been the case for a few decades, whilst others, including myself, are posting about how things have changed, the spcifics of what will be done to help home owners, renters and loandlords right now and for the next few months.

tryingtoprep · 19/03/2020 13:10

You must've been asleep the past 20 years @zsazsajuju Blair and Brown started dismantling that safety net. Cameron, Osborne, and Clegg diminished it further. Not much point someone being eligible for benefits if those benefits don't meet the rent amount. Hence why so few landlords allow people on lower incomes to rent their homes. Way before Covid getting sick, being made redundant, being disabled means homelessness for many.

todayisnottuesday · 19/03/2020 15:23

Way before Covid getting sick, being made redundant, being disabled means homelessness for many

Exactly. As we speak there are thousands of families in bed and breakfast/ substandard accommodation after being made homeless through no fault off their own. And there is nowhere to put them. An awful situation to be in in the first place, let alone those people being faced with young DC's at home 24/7 and being unable to go to work.

I'm not denying landlords/ those with a large mortgage will be affected, but some need to put it in a bit more context. We also have thousands living on the streets with nowhere to go and no protection from this awful virus. I've probably gone of track here, but I am genuinely worried about these groups of people, many of whom are already especially vulnerable to respiratory disease and have existing LTC's.

HeIenaDove · 19/03/2020 18:08

www.24housing.co.uk/opinion/make-it-go-viral-trust-in-crisis-comms/

Make It Go Viral: Trust in Crisis Comms
Council tenant Rob Gershon began self-isolating about a week ago, when the government announced no kind of isolation or distancing would be necessary other than a seven-day stay-at-home policy for people with a cough or temperature. He wonders below if there’s a better way to communicate what is happening than being over-caution and full dependence on government announcements, across the housing sector

"In times of crisis it’s important that people pull together to reinforce the social fabric, and the other materials that bind society together. Navigating the massive amount of information that has been circulating about the Coronavirus – Covid-19 – and coming to conclusion to inform decisions is already proving tricky for individuals and organisations.

As a carer with a compromised immune system, looking after my wife whose condition is also on the ‘risk list’, last week’s oddball government ‘herd immunity’ approach immediately and instinctively set off alarm bells. While there seemed to be an inexplicable acceptance that the government was ‘following the science’, it seemed a different science to that practised in faraway lands where they are managing to effectively contain the first waves of the pandemic, and a different science to that deployed by our immediate neighbours. Italy, notably, were suddenly struggling with the extreme demands a virus for which humans have no immunity and no vaccine were inevitably going to impose.

There is another angle to my distrust of our current government, rooted in their useless housing policymaking and a learned distrust of its spokespeople. While it might feel reassuring, perhaps rational to believe the government wouldn’t actively do anything to put people at risk, this notion has been smashed to pieces by government policiesof the last ten years.

This would be an even longer blog than necessary if I was to detail every failure, but for somebody who has seen, experienced and sometimes tried to help other people through the bedroom tax, the benefit cap and disability ‘welfare reforms’. As people stockpile toilet paper in anticipation of the Universal Credit shitshow, the idea government decisions don’t hurt and potentially kill people is anathema. Just within the last couple of weeks a group of respected leading charities have asked the DWP again to investigate the deaths of people whose social security payments had been wrongly cut. Both policy and the DWP handling of these cases led directly to unnecessary, avoidable deaths.

In short, with eugenicists in Number 10 and a long history of the Prime Minister being a lying toerag, for many people there is nothing reassuring about daily press briefings from a guy whose fear, incompetence and insincerity still bleeds through everything he does, even – especially – at a time of international crisis.

So, what can be said of the response of the housing sector to the exceptional circumstances we find ourselves in?

A week and a half ago, banks announced they would allow customers to defer mortgage payments if their incomes were affected by the coronavirus. This was a logical decision reached by a strong, independent business which had done some competent, realistic modelling about what the effects of the pandemic might be on its customers.

If there is a question in this piece, it is why haven’t the UK’s social landlords, calmly and publicly, announced some contingency plans for its tenants and its business? It would not even be necessary to assume the worst in order to put in place a couple of key bullet-points about how landlords are going to react to tenants who might suffer a loss of income for any one of a number of reasons as a result of the virus and its spread.

Where there have finally been responses from some housing organisations, they seem to have focused on two main issues. One is, rightly, the safety of residents and staff, including closing offices and for those that can, ensuring people work from home. It’s not clear what support will be available for people who have now realised it doesn’t matter if they don’t go to work but hopefully there will be things in place.

The other main point has been that people will not be evicted throughout the period of the crisis. This has only come about because the government has made a national commitment about it that still lacks enough detail to see how the suspension of evictions will be managed at time of writing.

This has raised an alarm for me, and certainly a few questions. In the day-to-day comms of the UK housing sector, there is a solid belief that landlords, housing associations especially, are great at comms and are thriving, independent, successful businesses. Then, at the first sign of a crisis which needs clear communication with tenants – not just internally but out in the world, too – there is public silence other than on those issues where the government has acted.

We must consider one of the points in Bobbie Hough’s helpful post earlier today about crisis comms: “Don’t promise what you can’t deliver”. A complete failure to act or communicate on any change in rent policy might be a real worry for tenants and people outside landlords trying to ensure people can get through this crisis, but for landlords it’s a natural response. While so much is still unknown, a promise to reduce or waive rents could have serious financial ramifications.

Still, there needs to be an urgent, open discussion about rent. In exceptional circumstances, exceptional responses are necessary. Part of the regulatory requirement for landlords Financial Viability ratings is that they make contingency plans for when things go wrong. Jokes about planning for a zombie apocalypse might raise a smile but at least they would have meant landlords had considered what might happen if people can’t pay rent.

The overwhelming sense of the current general housing sector response is that no matter how many jobs people lose, how many hours are cut, how much income is lost, no matter how sick people get, no matter what tragedy families might befall, the rent eats first.

Landlords are likely to be communicating directly with tenants at the moment, but there are a couple of problems with this being one of the only public responses. Firstly, they can’t prove it. Twitter might not be the only way of communicating with residents, but it is a great way to share that you are doing something. Secondly, it is a way of comparing responses and to open the measures being taken to some form of scrutiny. In addition, I haven’t heard anything specific from my landlord other than the usual advice to get in touch, which feels potentially naïve of them.

The sector has not yet had to respond to the social housing Green Paper or to many of the issues of trust raised by the Grenfell Tower fire, but an insular response in the belief landlords are always doing the right thing at the right time surely can’t be the approach we are expected to accept is now necessary?

All through my Twitter timeline and in discussions with carers and friends it is clear that across the country there are numerous community responses cropping up – local facebook groups – Nextdoor groups – informal support networks that do not include housing providers.

The sector preens its collective feathers every time there’s an opportunity for soundbites about how tenants being at the heart of everything they do, or about how as organisations they are embedded at the heart of communities. These theories have not come to the fore now the chips are down. Overseeing a system promoting long-term rent arrears risks landlords acting against people and communities at a time of crisis. This kind of damage could be difficult to repair once the crisis has passed.

Further intervention on income and rents is required from government, but landlords must end the apparent radio silent on this issue at the time of writing. As things stand tenants and leaseholders should expect a more coherent strategy from their landlords which should be reaching out to include and enhance strong emerging resident and community responses.

Later, perhaps, there needs to be a conversation about the the growing gap between what landlords say about themselves and submit entries for award ceremonies for, and what it turns out they actually do when true innovation, true adaptability and true community cohesion is needed. For now there needs to be a shift to public transparency and accountability.

I am very grateful to those people within and without the housing sector who have contributed to this piece by being open about what they are doing at their own organisations and what the wider implications of the crisis might be on sector responses"

HeIenaDove · 23/03/2020 14:23

Draft legislation on evictions ‘ban’ simply extends notice period to three months

NEWS
23/03/20
10:55 AM
BY PETER APPS

Draft legislation will simply extend the notice period for evictions from two months to three with landlords still able to serve notices on their tenants, Inside Housing can reveal

Twitter IHLegislation to ‘ban’ evictions simply extends notice period to three months #ukhousing
Twitter IHNew legislation will simply extend the notice period for evictions from two months to three, with landlords still able to serve notices on their tenants #ukhousing
Inside Housing has obtained a draft copy of the bill, which would cover England, and is set to go before the House of Commons today. The government had promised it would outlaw evictions in social and private housing during the coronavirus pandemic.

But the bill in fact simply extends the statutory notice period from two months to three for the vast majority of renters – meaning landlords can still serve notice and claim possession at the end of that period.

It also offers no protection to residents who can be evicted without notice – such as those in temporary housing or lodgers
One source said it was possible other draft bills are under consideration, and that this may not represent the final government plan. The Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) was contacted for comment.

No provision is made for rent arrears that will be built up during this period if people are unable to work. The government has previously said it would encourage landlords and tenants to agree “an affordable repayment plan” for these arrears.

The bill is unlikely to take effect before Friday at the earliest – raising the prospect of a slew of notices before this date. One expert described the measures as “pathetic”, and another source called them “complete crap”.

The bill – part of the government’s emergency coronavirus legislation package which will be debated today – will amend Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 to change the notice period for ‘assured shorthold tenancies’ from two months to three months

These are the type of tenancies the overwhelming majority of private tenants are given, and ‘Section 21’ gives landlords the power to bring them to an end at the conclusion of the lease period, which usually lasts for six months to a year.

To do so, the landlord must serve two months’ notice but does not need to give a reason – a process known as ‘no-fault eviction’ and something the government had previously promised to abolish.

But the new law will simply extend this notice period from two months to three.

Regulated, or Rent Act, tenancies (typically private tenancies which began before 1989) will see the notice period increase from four weeks to three months. Secured and assured tenancies – typically for residents of council homes and housing associations – will also see notice periods extended to three months.

The bill will be in force until 30 September.

Governments for the other countries in the UK may bring forward different measures, with the Scottish government today saying no tenants would be evicted during the period

Update at 11.25am on 23.3.2020

This story was updated to make it clearer that it is possible other draft bills are being developed.

The line "One source said it was possible other draft bills are under consideration" was extended to read "One source said it was possible other draft bills are under consideration, and that this may not represent the final government plan. The Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) was contacted for comment.

tryingtoprep · 23/03/2020 17:18

That doesn't sound good Helena
So tenants, including many in the vulnerable need to self isolate category, won't be able to "shield" themselves from Covid? You have to go out to house hunt - to viewings, and then to move. How they'll be able to find a new home when they might have lost their income (even if temporarily) I have no idea.

HeIenaDove · 24/03/2020 21:05

inews.co.uk/news/coronavirus-uk-government-help-pay-rent-homes-tenants-outbreak-campaign-2513945?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp&fbclid=IwAR2dnJH_C4N9RDUBAVgENBm5pBVDsQxldNQ9N0iWgwcYsdFIhp-jhSyplqY

Coronavirus in the UK: Government bill to help tenants pay rent during outbreak 'fails to deliver on every aspect'
Tenants will also be expected to strike up a rent arrears agreement with their landlord

By Jasmine Andersson
Tuesday, 24th March 2020

The government's bill to protect renters during the coronavirus outbreak "fails to deliver on every aspect," warn campaigners.

Renters will be protected by the government from eviction for the next three months, even if they cannot pay their rent, announced Prime Minister Boris Johnson during Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday.

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But scheduled amendments to the current Rent Act and Housing Act will still mean renters can be served notice, and would have to pay back their rent once the emergency measures are over, Inside Housing reported.

Landlords could serve notice during the outbreak
The draft bill scheduled for a reading in the House of Commons on Tuesday, will amend a clause in Section 21 of the Housing Act.

The government previously pledged to scrap Section 21, which gives landlords the right to evict tenants under a "no fault" clause, allowing them to evict tenants after they serve a two-month notice period. But these current plans mean the government has actually extended the statutory period to three months, giving landlords the right to serve notice during the outbreak, and evict tenants by June.

Residents who can currently be evicted without notice, such as those in temporary housing or lodgers, will also be exempt from the amendment to the bill.

Tenants will also be expected to strike up a rent arrears agreement with their landlord if they fail to pay rent after losing their job or earning significantly less during the outbreak, leaving renters at the mercy of the property owner.

Caitlin Wilkinson, Policy Manager at Generation Rent, said: "This legislation fails to deliver on these promises in every respect. All these measures do is extend the notice period for evictions to three months, which will provide little comfort to those faced with losing their homes in the midst of a pandemic. Equally worrying is the lack of provision made for rent arrears, which will stack up in the three month period.

"Many renters will end up with thousands of pounds worth of debt and no means of paying it off. Landlords and tenants are expected to 'work together' to find a solution to suit both parties from June onwards - but there's absolutely nothing to stop landlords from evicting tenants if they can't pay. Eviction is the leading cause of homelessness, so the Government must act now to avoid another crisis in three months' time.

Absolute nonsense'
The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government called the criticisms "absolute nonsense," and said the legislation "guarantees" that no tenant will be forced out of their home.

A spokesperson from the government department told i: “We have made a clear commitment to renters, and the claim that we are rowing back on it is absolute nonsense.

Our emergency legislation will guarantee no tenant is forced out of their home – in either the social sector or the private rented sector – for at least the next 3 months. No possession proceedings from new notices will start during this time, and we have the power to extend this notice period if necessary.”

At the same time, this Government is supporting renters through guaranteeing to pay 80 per cent of employee’s wages, if their employer cannot afford to pay them while they are on temporary leave, and increased housing benefit. We have been clear we will do whatever is needed to support people at this difficult time.”

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