AIBU to ask you to help the vulnerable and elderly 'cocoon' NOW

[Sowo]

I think to understand what seems like some really bizarre decisions you need to understand that the UK government are taking a different approach to any other government. They want a level of spread. The idea being if 60% of the population get it we develop as a country a level of herd immunity, preventing another huge outbreak next winter.

NY Times article.

It's possible to find arguments for this being a potentially good idea, though also a gamble. Right now only time will tell if it'll turn out that going a completely different direction will pay off or not. I've seen respected scientists arguing both ways. I think more fall on the side that this is a risky and will cause a lot of death.

My concerns are

• We don't yet know enough about this coronavirus to know if immunity is possible, or if a 60% infection rate is even nearly enough to confer herd immunity. Many flu viruses and other coronaviruses mutate every year hence new vaccines every year. Who knows if people being immune now means they will be immune next flu season? The government has a risky plan that is meant to reduce future deaths. If people are not immune after infection for whatever reason, we will have huge numbers of deaths now and no herd immunity to prevent future deaths later either.

• The spread is exponential. How do you control that? If you put only small measures in to prevent spread, how do you then slow it once a critical mass of people have been infected? Especially with limited testing. While infection rates in the general population can probably be extrapolated from the amount of deaths and hospital admissions in an area, surely by the time a hospital is close to being overwhelmed, it's too late as there will be huge numbers of people in the community soon to be seriously sick with no beds left. There's a delay between getting infected and being sick enough to need hospital treatment.

• We can't control who gets the virus. Current measures mean everyone, young and old, healthy or sick, are at similar risk of infection. But we know that only some of us are vulnerable to complications and death as a result. The government intend to 'cocoon' the elderly and vulnerable at some point, to allow everyone else to get infected and have immunity. There are problems with that though, such as risks for people who need carers. But not least the issue is that right now there are no cocooning measures in place. The government has said at some point soon they will tell the vulnerable and those over 70 to stay home. But not yet. How many people are the government willing to let die before those measures are introduced? I can't help but feel we are not human beings for many of the people behind this. We are numbers to the modellers working on this, and a certain number of us can be lost if the models show overall it's worth it. Maybe you need that steely nosed approach but I think it's scary.

My husband and I are young (32 and 34), both us and our children are unlikely to get seriously ill. We will have a higher chance of being ok with the government's plan. But my in-laws are 74 and 76, one has asthma and heart disease, and we rely on them for childcare. My parents are younger but my father has had respiratory problems in the past and regularly gets bronchitis and pneumonia. We also rely on them for childcare. Right now we are working out how we can both continue to work but not have them offer childcare. The risk to them is so much higher and by the time 'cocooning' measures are in place it's going to be too late for large amounts of the older and more vulnerable population. I think the elderly and vulnerable who can need to start their own cocooning measures now. For my in-laws that would be not seeing the grandchildren and the one who works in a busy city centre location to stop working. Stay home as much as possible, still walk the dog and go to shops but wash hands frequently and don't have visitors. Avoid gatherings large and small, work from home if you can.

I think we should all be advising our elderly and vulnerable relatives to reduce contact with others as much as they can. Especially children while schools are remaining open even in the face of infection. Not everyone will be able to do this of course but it has the potential to slow the spread and therefore be a protective move for everyone, surely? We all have a responsibility to do what we can to protect ourselves and therefore others, and even more so to protect those who can't protect themselves, e.g. the 72 year old man with heart disease who can't stop work due to finances. Together we can help protect those people a little bit.

I'm obviously not an expert. But from all I've read this makes sense to me so I want to let others know and I also would love to know others thoughts to help me understand everything better. I may have misunderstood - there's certainly plenty of room for misunderstanding after all.

Maybe your elderly relatives have their own ideas? Mine certainly do.

I think that's common sense. I also don't think you should be relying on your elderly unwell parents, one of whom still has to work himself, as childcare.

They’re gambling with our lives.

Besides, surely encouraging 60% of us to get it means a huge strain on resources.

And we don’t know if immunity is yet possible.

Yeah, this post reflects their ideas. Of course they have their own ideas. Including both couples offering 2 hours of after school care once a week. I love the mumsnet assumption that any grandparents offering childcare have a gun to their heads when doing it and are forced to by their pushy kids. It's us always saying they don't need to do more.

My mum is in her late 80s. We want her to stay indoors and away from people. But she's horribly isolated already, because although she has one of us visit everyday, she really looks forward to one of us taking her out for lunch or something once a week. She lives for that change of scene. I don't want her to go get corona virus but I don't want her to sink into depression either. It's really tough.

Exactly Romeo. I hoped this post would just generate discussion that people should think about pre-empting the government 'cocooning' advice.

Agree OP... I've called together our family today for early Mother's Day, I've got isolation goody bags for parents and in laws, I've set up online food shops for them and am offering to collect any meds etc they need. I'd like them to be here next year so I'm going to help them stay safe.

But how long to they avoid contact with humans for?

It is so widespread now it will become endemic. Then what?

Isolate for weeks. Months. Years?

I'd rather take my chances with the virus

I'm not MN, I'm one poster. You pointed out in your post that you rely on both sets of parents as your childcare. This makes it seem like you have no choice but to have them provide you childcare. Now you're saying it's a couple of hours a week, which is probably normal contact time with grandparents

Honestly it's so shit that as a society we're in this situation where grandparents have to provide care for two working parents. The virus has shown how little slack is in the system. I hope this crisis shows us just how up against the wall everyone is. It's not right. The housing crisis is at the very heart of this. It makes me angry.

Social isolation is a huge contributor to depression and anxiety in elderly folks. This could go on for a long time. I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t think “cocooning” is it.

I think for those that use grandparents for childcare it is time to re think. They are at the most at risk and if you can do your bit by potentially stopping them getting it, surely it’s worth it? Obviously you can’t stop them from what else they might chose to do but at least you have taken practical measures

Well, we do rely on it in that there's no formal after school provision available I'm not sure how either of us work without after school care (I'm part time, 2.5 days, hence needing it twice a week). But no, it's not hours and hours, although we tend to be together as a family at weekends.

I guess I'm not advocating full self isolation, just minimising contact. If you avoid gatherings, working with the public/in a busy office and children, your risk is much lower. You can still see asymptomatic individuals, but don't kiss and wash hands and surfaces regularly. It's not going to prevent all infection but would reduce it.

My DM is 79 and well capable of making her own decisions. She had my 11yo niece to stay last night and today we are taking her out for the day. Tomorrow she will attend church as she always does. She is good with hand washing and general hygiene. She does have a heart condition and she understands the implications of this. What do you want me to do? I can't stop her living her life as she pleases.

I’ve insisted to my very vulnerable parents that they need to be social distancing, stop work and stay off public transport. It was a really upsetting conversation. And they are desperate to see us and the grandchildren. My MIL is more afraid of loneliness than the virus - but she is younger and in better health so is in a different situation. It’s really hard and feels terrible especially as it could mean some older people being isolated for potentially months which of course is damaging in terms of mental health. But my hope is that for the sake of a few months of hardship, they will be around for years to come and we can make up for all the family events and holidays we have now had to cancel.

I think tha

Of course ultimately people make their own decisions Apollo. But I'm not sure there's widespread understanding of the government approach yet so talking about it helps people make informed decisions. People will, and always have, do what they want with that information.

I'm lucky my family are tech savvy enough we can FaceTime etc. My elderly grandad can't but like I say, I'm not saying to leave him alone. Just minimise his risks, don't take the kids to see him, don't be too close when visiting. Pick up the phone everyday.

For a lot of our very elderly, daily phone conversations would actually be a big increase in contact with family.

I’ve arranged alternative childcare and to meet up with my elderly parent for short walks outdoors with chats. No touching, no car sharing, no entry to each others houses. Calling every day. It’s really weird but it’s all I can do.

But my hope is that for the sake of a few months of hardship, they will be around for years to come and we can make up for all the family events and holidays we have now had to cancel.

I think that a few months probably seems like a very long time when you are already elderly. I know my mum feels she needs to live right now, because she has already surpassed the age that most people live to. She can't really afford to delay for a time that might never come...

I'm still trying to persuade her to stay in though.

We have been trying to convince our elderly in laws for two days to start staying home and they just laugh it off. It's incredibly frustrating. My mother on the other hand suddenly has "just a cold", and is not "really sick" and thinks she can carry on as normal, not understanding the concept of protecting others. I don't expect them to go on 100% self-isolation, but they won't even take simple measures that are so easy to do like ordering groceries instead of going to the shops, not continuing their work as volunteers at very busy positions! (Like bus driving)

I am going back and forth between intense worry about them bring me to the edge of tears, and frustration and anger at their lack of care and j understanding making me just want to give up on them. In the end, they are adults, and I can only push them so far. And as parents, they are very resistant to the responsibility of care being inverted, ie. Us caring for them instead of the other way around. I'm very confused about how much I should push or let them be.

How are other people with stubborn elderly parents dealing with this?

I honestly don't understand why the government hasn't advised the elderly and those in high risk groups to self isolate now. Much easier for them to do so than those of us who have kids/jobs. I've finally managed to convince my parents to stop going out and prepare for a long period at home, one of them has existing lung disease and they're both in their 70's. I've set them up with an online account for shopping and I'll be dropping off any smaller shops they need in between on their doorstep. They were not happy when I suggested they shouldn't see their grandchildren, they're very close to DS and see him regularly and their other gc have parents working in the NHS. My mum assumed DS would be going there if the schools shut and I had to inform her than no he'll be staying home alone, thankfully he's a very sensible 11 year old and I'm confident he'll cope fine.
I was a bit shocked to see how just many pensioners were out and about in cafes near my work yesterday, people need to start protecting themselves, yes I realise the effects of social isolation will be awful for many but I'd go for lonliness over death any day. However people like OP will definitely have to stop using GPs for childcare if they want to protect them.

My parents both have health conditions and are keeping a low profile. My mil is 66, works in a supermarket and definitely doesn’t see herself as elderly. No way would she cut back. It’s her risk. My fil is a lot older so more concerned about him, but beyond mentioning it to them there’s very little we can do, they have their own free will and can make their own mind up.

I think a lot of older people who maybe don’t use social media won’t see the risks. I told my dad that Italy aren’t able to treat anyone over 60. I could see that changed his view, and now he’s wfh more. The government are saying elderly are at risk, yet 60 isn’t elderly and they are at risk if hospitals are full.

We are both elderly and are social distancing and staying at home. My DH has a lung condition as we don’t want him to get ill. He was seriously ill with flu a couple of years ago. So we’ve stocked up on food and also have online shopping when we need it, we told family not to visit. We have plenty to occupy us. I think older people use common sense and know a lot of other older people that are doing the same as us

My Dh grandmother is 94 and a stubborn old goat. She’s still out and about everyday, thinks this is all nonsense. The only trouble is she expects FIL who is 74 to spend a lot of time with her. He’s there everyday. He’s the one with heart problems so she’s being really selfish in the fact that she will pass it to him if she gets it.

My dad is 84 and won’t hear of any of it. Again selfish as he could pass it on. I had pneumonia pleurisy over Christmas and I still have a few lingering issues. I’m also pregnant. I’d rather not catch anything but my dad is still guilt tripping me into coming to stay.

Surprisingly mine are not being as stubborn as we thought they might! They’re early 70s and while generally well they have the type of underlying conditions common to their age group as well as other (well managed) complaints. I was worried they might push back a bit because being perfectly independent and capable, they understandably don’t like to see themselves as “vulnerable”.

Thankfully they’re on board with the social distancing thing. We’re in Ireland and I think Thursdays decision re schools etc definitely helped focus their minds so while they were already being careful re hand washing, they’re now avoiding public transport and places that tend to be busy. Needless to say they haven’t been to a supermarket these past few days, it’s been insane!

They’re not staying home 24/7 and I will call to them but being careful to stay only a short while and taking precautions such as washing hands as soon as I arrive, sitting well away from them and I’m thinking a scarf covering my mouth to be safe. At the moment I don’t think full on isolation is necessary and I suspect if we were trying to push that on them right now, they’d think it was ott and might decide to get out and about more to break the boredom. For the moment we’re all just trying to strike the right balance.