COVID-19 nursery closure and refund

[justthisreally]

I have 3DCs in a private nursery. A staff told me today that they are getting themselves ready for the closure in the event of government directive. I asked if parents will be asked to pay for the period of closure. She said that all depends on what their head office decides when the time comes.

I'm self employed. And if I need to look after my DCs, I worry that I will have no income but have this huge nursery cost?

AIBU to expect my private nursery to not charge (including refund for the fees paid in advance) in case of closure?

MIne aren’t in childcare but there’s a local nursery that loads of work colleagues use.

They sent out a casual, breezy email last week telling parents that as their insurance would not cover any closure, full payment would be required for any closure period and this was non-negotiable.

Within 24 hours I spoke to 3 different people who were making arrangements to have family mind their kids after telling the nursery to go fuck themselves and they’d take their chances the space would be free in a few weeks.

I can’t see most people paying tbh. In that situation I wouldn’t. I feel sorry for the nurseries but I wouldn’t pay for care not being provided and I wouldn’t feel guilty either - it’s not my responsibility to cover what their insurance won’t.

I guess you have to ask yourself, which is worse, paying for a month of childcare without no income or losing your childcare

Worse would be being one of the few to keep paying and the nursery going under anyway as most will stop paying.

Then you have no money and no care anyway.

@ClareBlue
Literally the most sensible post ever

This thread just proves why childcare facilities - and schools - should remain open as long as possible

Those taking their kids out of nursery. How does it work? My nursery requires 2 months notice so I would have to pay until mid May anyway. Then I would have lost my place.

Then I would have lost my place

Exactly. Fine if you don't need childcare anymore or have another nursery in mind you want to use. People are so short sighted.

Blue moon

I know five local preschool ( including ours) that will continue to pay staff if it’s a forced closures

I wouldn't agree ClareBlue.
It's down to the contract but also subject to Unfair Contract Terms Act. A term in a contract saying a consumer has to continue in the event of a period of closure of indeterminate time would be under huge scrutiny and probably not be enforceable unless it was made very clear at the outset. If it defines a specific period (2 weeks, a month etc) and makes that term clear then maybe.

For the OP - if the contract is silent on the matter then the contract is interpreted against the person drafting it ie the nursery here. So fees would not be payable as the service is not being provided.
If they want to charge it would be down to the goodwill of the parents if they opt to go along with this.

The nurseries etc planning to pay the staff full pay during a period of closure: absolutely fine to be generous but do it relying on YOUR reserves, not on my savings when I am myself on unpaid leave!

And don't forget about the Childminding settings too! I'm a CM and if we are forced to close my insurance doesnt cover fees. I have a small amount of part funded children and the local authority hasn't yet said if they will pay or not. I am just hoping and praying this doesnt happen as it is the only income I have and if parent's wont pay I will have to live off credit cards and get massively in debt. I don't have enough savings to get through it unfortunately.

I think the government should either compel the insurance companies to pay out for enforced closure or the government should compensate the nurseries. Of course we’d all have to pay higher taxes but I’d rather everyone pay a little more than nurseries go bust, parents unable to work due to lack of childcare and all the job losses that would entail.

We have to pay full fees if our nursery closes but we’re lucky that we have some savings (supposed to be for my upcoming maternity leave) and some wealthy relatives who could easily give us £2k or £3k to survive if we were to have to take unpaid leave. I realise a lot of people don’t have those resources.

Totally agree with your post oblada

Why should insurance companies pay out for something the nurseries aren't insured for?! That's not how insurance works.

I work in a nursery and we are currently in talks over what to do.

I think parents would still be expected to pay though (probably a reduced amount). Its a tricky one which is out of the hands of both the nursery or parents so I guess meeting in the middle is the fairest option.The staff also would still need to get paid.

Ruby - unless the contract sets it out (and subject to my reservations above) you couldn't compel the parents to pay out, full or reduced amount. If the nursery is going to struggle to cover basic costs/survive then by all means ask the parents to help out as a gesture of goodwill.

Tough as it may be the staff wouldn't have to be paid (just like I won't be paid if the nursery closes and I look after my children instead of working) as they would be laid off (assuming there is a lay off clause in the contract - if not then other options would need to be considered).

@oblada, still not getting it. Instruction under infectious disease legislation creates a different situation. Read again what I said. It is correct, I assure you. Nobody has to pay indefinitely as you state and thus create an unfair contract. You can break the contract as per your contract. Nobody has to continue paying. I repeat for the last time, closure under public health grounds is not a denial of service or a break of contract, it is classified separate and you pay unless agreed otherwise or you break the contract as per the terms. Comparisons with other service provision where someone didn't turn up or didn't provide broadband is just not correct under an instruction under infectious disease legislation. It creates a different legal situation. I enforce this legislation daily in all sorts of situations in Ireland and have done in UK previously. I have a list of legislation I am authorised under that has extensive powers to close and restrict business operations. I can exclude workers from going to work under the legislation and I can prohibit activities and sales. I can assure you if I close a business under infectious disease legislation (not food hygiene as that is different) then the business has not breached their contract to provide a service. If you want recoverable damages you go against the Agency that shut them - good luck with that - which I have never in 30 years seen suceede.

I've never suggested that the nursery would be breaking the contract. Just that as they are not delivering it (through no fault of their own), I am not paying them, end of. No intention of claiming damages. Just not going to pay for a service I'm not receiving.

I don't think we are really disagreeing ClareBlue. But I'm finding your posts hard to follow as there is no gap/paragraph.

I agree that the nursery has to close and is not doing anything wrong by closing. But they are not delivering the contract so I won't pay.
Could I be made to pay under the terms of the contract? In my view highly unlikely (unlikely to be any provision in the contract to start with and if there was that provision would likely be unfair).

Ok. Make it clear. The bottom line is they can charge and if you don't pay they can recover as per if you didn't pay at any other time. You can not say I didn't pay because there was no service. That's not a reason for not paying when a service is restricted under the Infectious Disease legislation.

You have to think of it as the service is actually legally still being provided even if you can not access it. My advice, as my last post on this, would be to negotiate as parents as a group and get best deal for everyone.

Unprecedented times unfortunately and we can only hope we all get through as best we can.

@oblada

I don’t think you really understand contract law. There is always a clause for things like this in it. Communicable diseases

Always. They could very easily take you to court, and most likely they will unless they get compensated from the government. I would look through your contract with a fine tooth comb before you start going on about consumer laws which don’t apply to services the same way they apply to goods.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
I know there is no clause in the nursery contract about it. It is a pretty basic contract.
The law on infectious disease doesn't override consumer legislation and protection around unfair terms. There is no reason why consumers should take the brunt of a forced closure due to infectious disease etc. It's fine to say 'we won't refund the rest of the month if we have to close due to epidemics' / 'will not be liable for damages due to breach of contracts' - it's very different to say 'we will continue to charge in full even if we are forced to close potentially for 2-3 months or even more who knows' and expect the later (if in the contract) to be enforceable.

Well if they have a basic contract with no caveat for world disasters or communicable diseases then that’s very unprofessional of them.
Even I have it in the most basic form for my business.

Just checked my ASC just in case and there is nothing there either...
I still don't think a clause would allow to charge for a service not provided for a number of weeks/months. To avoid a breach of contract claim / not refund the very immediate period Yes. To require 2-3 months of fees for no service - No, I'd challenge this as unfair. It's not their fault they have to close but it certainly isn't mine either.

And realistically the whole discussion on various news website about nursery not being covered by the insurance and the gvt stepping in would be moot if the parents were simply expected to keep paying in full...

Our nursery informed us by email we would be expected to pay in full. The “events beyond our control“ clause being an acceptable binding term for this situation which sadly is beyond everyone’s control. We run our own business & are already loosing profits so we will probably have to take him out but since they demanded a 2 month deposit from us we’ll still loose over £2k. I am not sure when other small businesses are likely to go bust how the nurseries are allowed to enforce this in times of a global economic crisis. Certainly to meet in the middle with half fees but not the whole lot for possibly 2-3 months when people are then themselves loosing income due to having to be at home to look after their children is appalling.

www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/article/nurseries-not-covered-by-insurance-for-coronavirus-closures - those ppl don't seem to think that parents would have to pay.

The “events beyond our control“ clause being an acceptable binding term for this situation which sadly is beyond everyone’s control.

I'm not quite sure why parents couldn't also invoke an 'events beyond our control' clause to say they could no longer pay?