Free Palestine

[mommyandmore]

Please forgive my ignorance! Please can someone tell me the history of this? I have obviously seen and read what has unfolded over the past year but I’d really like someone to break down what’s happening. The things I’m seeing are horrific! Thanks and please no sarky comments, I’m really wanting to educate myself further about this.

I honestly think Gaza has become a mental illness for some of my friends.

The amount of time my friends spend posting, writing and marching for Palestine is wildly disproportionate to any interest they have ever taken in equally tragic events worldwide. We’ve had 4 genocides in the last 10 years, a third of a million Ukrainian children kidnapped and vanished into Russia, and the ongoing terror rule of the Taliban where I honestly can’t think of any more abuse and violations they can heap on the women - frankly I would rather be dead than live their lives. 150,000 people have been killed in Sudan - about twice the number as in Gaza - murdered by pro-Arab forces, with 12 million people forced from their homes.

If ‘all eyes are on Gaza’ then who is bothering about these poor souls? Is a Sudanese life of lesser value than a Gazan just because they don’t have sophisticated social media to show us what is going on, and have no ‘on side’ celebrities in the same way?

Gaza has become nothing but a purity spiral for the left, yet another way of insecurely proving their credentials as an ‘anti fascist’ by using fascist tactics, such as demanding forced declarations of support from people or otherwise shun them. Businesses with the weakest of links to Israel are boycotted and many have been vandalised. I don’t even need to mention the horrific rise in antisemitism (or maybe I do) which borders on pro-Nazi at this stage.

The marches and online ‘activism’ has given the self loathing and insecure among us a nice easy bandwagon to hop aboard, lead by nice familiar celebrities like Greta and Mo. I honestly think if the agreement is signed and this is the end of the war, they will be a bit lost and deflated. What will they post about 24/7? How will they further embed themselves into left wing society? How will they show they are much, much better people than the rest of the country? It’ll be interesting to see how it pans out.

I look forward to them devoting all that energy and influence to the world's other crises!

I think they’ll just revert it back to Donald Trump as again, the social media is nice and easy and it’s a very clear ‘fascists v blue hair’ scenario. Getting to grips with the political complexities of what is happening in Sudan is beyond them, and too much effort, and there’s not as much celebrity glamour involved so I think they’ll give that a quiet swerve.

Well I don’t want the war to continue, so engage with me!

In the BBC article that was linked, this is the bit I worry about:

“The plan also says Hamas will have no role in governing Gaza, and leaves the door open for an eventual Palestinian state - but Netanyahu later again ruled this out.”

It is good that the world leaders are pledging their support for a Palestinian state as well as the rebuilding of Gaza. But how is this going to work when Netanyahu and so many of Israel leaders are opposed to it?

Firstly, start with borders. Where do you think the borders should sit? 1967 or the UN partition? In your opinion?

The path to a Palestinian state will be a long one and the deal states that it requires development of the PA. There are elections in Israel next year. There are lots of moving parts and if Hamas is out of the way there is room for others to come forward.

I don't have an opinion on where the borders should sit because I don't know enough details about the situation re the borders for an informed opinion. Sorry if that sounds like I'm not answering the question but I'm being honest.

I'm happy to be educated if others cares to debate the issue of the borders.

Re Netanyahu and his government which has too many far right people in it for my liking ... if the war ends the 2026 elections can take place. My expectation and hope would be for a more moderate government to be voted in who may genuinely be more amenable to the idea of a two state solution.

But what do you personally think the borders should be?

Sorry, I'm assuming you believe in a Palestinian state, so maybe I should ask that question first.

Do you believe in a Palestinian state?

I'm sorry that Jewish people in the UK are suffering, the anti semitism of many sadly showing.

I agree there have been and are many wars in which boundaries and land are changed. It appears it only matters when its anything yo do with Gaza/Israel. If both sides could move forwards it would be good for all but as long as the forever victim narrative is pushed for Palestinians it wont since they assume justification in attacks. Feels like they don't really want peace but for Israel to not exist. That will not be allowed so feels like terrorists will continue. Many in the west screaming about Palestinian really dont help the situation move forward but enable the conflict to continue.

Thanks for engaging. It seems that many talk about 1967 borders and these have been agreed to by Hamas.

I don’t think it’s particularly fair as the two territories will be cut off from each other but there seems to be to be no alternative

Yes. I sincerely hope that the peace process in the region will be left to the people there, and to the experts so my opinion on borders is entirely irrelevant.

😂 not a chance of that happening

There are Catholic schools all over Scotland - paid for by the state (so by me). Bank holidays are linked to the Christian religion, my child learns about the nativity in her state school and they do worksheets on the Easter holiday in April. I have no right to a holiday on Rosh Hashanah but my work closes for Christmas. These are government policies as this is a Christian country. I know this and I haven't refused to participate in any of the traditions of my home, but it's absolutely true that it's a part of my daily life.

No one ever believes something will happen until it does. Anyone with a Jewish grandparent (and other ethnicities of course, I can only speak to my experience) was raised to be mindful and cautious and try to preempt the disaster. By the time everyone is being open about deportations or stripping citizenship from specific groups of people it's too late to save your family.

No, I don't like dead children any more than anyone - I'm not a psychopath. I just can't see how anyone can negotiate with terrorists in any sort of productive way. I'm not a monster, I'm just terribly, terribly sad.

But your child can go to the same school as a christian child or my unbaptised child- in Israel schools are segregated and the non jewish schools get a fraction of the funding. If a christian in the US decides they want Scottish citizenship they can’t just move there and the state sure as hell wouldn’t provide armed guards as they stole a non christian families house! Your citizenship and rights should not be linked to what version of God you believe in.

If I moved to Israel or Egypt I would have no problem with the holiday leave being linked to judaism or the muslim religion but I would have a problem with having different rights or a subpar segregated education system that leaves my child at a disadvantage.

You do realise that what you have said about stripping citizenship from people is exactly what has happened to Palestinians. There are countless Palestinians born in areas that have no become part of Israel that are denied Israeli citizenship and the right to return to their land and houses.

The problem with the current “peace talks” is that there is only one side at the table. The other issue is that that one side has broken cease fires countless times and has also openly said they want to achieve Greater Israel and have talked about developing Gaza as a resort.

Two buddies getting together and calling it Peace Talks is a PR exercise - we’ve been here before and seen it countless times. If it does lead to peace I would be delighted but I don’t think it is real.

Peace in Northern Ireland was achieved through having everyone at the table - Irish and British governments, Irish and British terrorist groups. Honestly some of the people at the table you would not invite into your home. No one was entirely happy with the outcome, everyone had to compromise, both sides gave up weapons and both sides saw horrible people who committed awful crimes go free. But there were no more bombs, no more blood shed, no more innocent people being imprisoned or murdered, no more soldiers walking the streets with guns. Everyone born there can now decide if they want to be seen as British or Irish, there is a right to two passports, borders are kept open with Britain and Ireland. Catholics and Protestants can both join the police, the army, live where they want and both are represented at a government level. It is a different place to 30 years ago! There are still the ripples, still ongoing court cases to try and get justice for the dead but ordinary people can go about their lives without fear.

Peace talks are hard, they take time and all the small details like borders, voting rights, citizenship rights are hashed out in fine detail. It is not something one side put together without talking to the other side or without committing to borders or rights for the other side. Compromise is a two way street and a Peace Talk should have more than one voice at the table.

Absolutely.

No one likes sitting down at a table with the 'other side' but that's what is needed for a lasting peace. Not a bad plan imposed unilaterally under the threat of intensifying genocide, which the other side get through the media!

Quite. It seems it's not only Hamas who are openly willing to sacrifice every last Palestinian

They really do deserve so much better from their government and so called supporters

The World at One on Radio4 was interesting on the new peace proposals, interviewing people with varying views.

From my point of view fwiw Netanyahu has already said no to any two state solution so my hopes from this morning have dissipated.

Except that Netanyahu has now said they won't.

Trump gives Hamas ‘three or four days’ to respond to Gaza plan
Donald Trump has said Hamas has “three or four days” to respond to his Gaza plan or face the consequences.
Speaking to reporters as he left the White House on Tuesday, Trump said Israeli and Arab leaders had accepted the proposal and “we’re just waiting for Hamas”.
Hamas is either going to be doing it or not, and if it’s not, it’s going to be a very sad end.
Asked if there was room for negotiations, Trump replied: “Not much.”

UN chief stated 1 minute ago

"UN chief calls for 'all parties' to commit to Trump's Gaza deal
United Nations secretary-general António Guterres called Tuesday for “all parties” to commit to the peace plan for Gaza presented by US president Donald Trump, a spokesperson said.
“It is now crucial that all parties commit to an agreement and its implementation … he once again reiterates his call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire,” Farhan Haq, a spokesperson for Guterres, said in a statement."

I think you're referring to the fact that at the 11th hour, Netanyahu managed to make changes to the Trump proposal regarding the scope and nature of the IDF’s withdrawal from Gaza.

The updated peace plan published on Monday by the White House stated that “Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed-upon line.”

This appeared to refer to a new map that was included in the updated version that illustrated three phases of Israeli withdrawals from Gaza.

The map shows that Israeli troops will be able to remain in the majority of the Gaza Strip even after the first pullback of IDF troops in preparation for all of the hostages to be released.

They will then be able to remain in those positions until the International Stabilization Force (ISF) of Arab and Muslim countries is prepared to deploy and fully operate to disarm Hamas, the plan states.

Even after the second phase of the withdrawal, the IDF will remain in over a third of the Strip, the map indicates.

The third withdrawal will clear the final troops out of Gaza, but the map shows that a security buffer zone will be established along the perimeter of the entire Strip, another Israeli demand aimed at mitigating the threat of another October 7-like invasion.

In the plan, point 19 about a Palestinian state is already nebulous about how likely it would be - note the word may.

19. While Gaza re-development advances and when the PA reform programme is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognise as the aspiration of the Palestinian people.

And Netanyahu has said:

"Absolutely not, and it is not written in the agreement either. But one thing we did say: we are firmly opposed to a Palestinian state. President Trump also said this; he said he understands our position. He also declared at the UN that such a move would be a huge reward for terror and a danger to the state of Israel. And of course, we will not agree to it."

https://www.trtworld.com/article/b1947f8d515f

Could you point to a similar conflict that the UK government is actively supporting with military aid as well as sales of weapons and where there are concerns about current war crimes? A conflict the UK government is failing to criticise despite concerns about war crimes. Not only failed to criticise but also has close civil and political links with.

I want to know why they all ditched climate change. Is climate change solved then?