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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

681 replies

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 17:15

An overwhelming majority of members of the world’s leading genocide scholars’ association have backed a resolution stating that Israel’s actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of the crime.
Eighty-six per cent of those who voted in the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) supported the motion. The resolution states that “Israel’s policies and actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of genocide in article II of the United Nations convention for the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide (1948).”

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say

Gaza | The Guardian

Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Wedonttalkaboutboris · 06/09/2025 20:02

SharonEllis · 06/09/2025 19:50

Sure, the holocaust was genocide and it was post holocaust that much of our understanding of genocide was formulated. The desire to prove that the Jewish nation is perpetuating genocide taps straight into one of the major strands of modern antisemitism which is to exceptionalise Israel and the Jews, to see Israel as a colonial enterprise whicg inverts the oppressed/oppressor. I think the relish with which people go down this route is horrifying. As you say, what is happening in this war is hortific enough without adding this extra element. I think you do have to question why people wish to do it. When you see the accopanying attacks on Jewish people around the world then antisemitism is comlletely undeniable. You have to join the dots. Its not coincidence.

I really disagree that this is about ‘relishing’ in labelling genocide- it’s about describing what’s actually happening. The term exists because mass civilian destruction, forced displacement, and the deliberate targeting of conditions of survival are crimes under international law.

Genocide scholars and the ICJ are raising it because the evidence fits the legal definition. That’s not antisemitism, it’s accountability. Conflating criticism of state violence with hatred of Jewish people is exactly what shuts down honest discussion.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 06/09/2025 20:11

I actually think the complexity of the Jewish community’s response is rooted in generational trauma- centuries of persecution, pogroms, and of course the Holocaust. That trauma gets carried forward in families and shapes how threat and safety are perceived. So when some Jewish people hear the word genocide applied to Israel, it hits a raw nerve. It must feel like history being inverted- the descendants of victims accused of the very crime that scarred their identity. That doesn’t make the accusation invalid, but it does explain why the emotional response is so heightened.

SharonEllis · 06/09/2025 20:23

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 06/09/2025 20:02

I really disagree that this is about ‘relishing’ in labelling genocide- it’s about describing what’s actually happening. The term exists because mass civilian destruction, forced displacement, and the deliberate targeting of conditions of survival are crimes under international law.

Genocide scholars and the ICJ are raising it because the evidence fits the legal definition. That’s not antisemitism, it’s accountability. Conflating criticism of state violence with hatred of Jewish people is exactly what shuts down honest discussion.

There is no doubt there is huge relish. Im glad you don't share it

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 20:26

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 19:56

@PinkBobby I always appreciate the way you express your views, even where we have a different perspective.

Do you feel any nervousness about the obvious rise of antisemitism in the UK since 7/10? I am anxious about who is pulling the strings here, and how. It's what motivates me to post on these threads at the risk of being ridiculed.

Thank you. I try to explain my perspective clearly as I feel strongly that you can be pro-Israel in its existence and its people but very anti Israel in its current actions (and its historical actions towards Palestinians). I think the emotion (frustration/anger/sadness) people display towards the situation is very understandable because of the level of pain and suffering.

As @Wedonttalkaboutboris has said, Israel are being investigated for genocide. The Israeli government use genocidal rhetoric. The level of death and destruction in Gaza is horrendous and the use of starvation as a tactic of war is unforgivable. I try to keep my reasoning clear and try not to get personal as I think there are a huge number on the pro Palestinian who are not antisemitic or jumping on a bandwagon or just absorbing Hamas propaganda and I want that to be made clear so that debate doesn’t go round in circles.

Yes, the rise in antisemitism is definitely a huge concern and there is no doubt that some of the information out there is very much coming from a place of hatred rather than concern. I am not by any means minimising the threat and violence Jewish people face and feel angry that people show such hatred towards the wrong people in this conflict.

I believe in the current UK context though, the immigration narrative, the burning of hotels/violent protests, the rise in Reform voters (potentially) and the flag flying plus the rise of Islamophobic attacks/the hatred shown towards Muslim people or people perceived to be Muslim is a huge concern for me and the direction we are going in as a country. I think that growing up in our time (assuming we are all within a certain age bracket) makes us sadly much more likely to default to Islamophobia because of the rise in radical Islam in our lifetimes and I think that has been a terrible burden on Muslim people and people perceived to be Muslim. I think that is a bias/form of racism that I am very conscious of /worried about at the moment.

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 20:41

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 06/09/2025 11:28

I think it was mine. I’d called people justifying the deaths of women and children twisted. Hardly juicy. Maybe this will be deleted too.

I didn’t see the post. I recommend watching Dr Gabor Mate speaking on ‘The right of self defence - but against who?’ He talks about how the phrase can be twisted to justify power against the powerless when there is a lack of context.

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 20:45

I share your concern about the conflation (!!!!!!! that word again!!!!!!! 😜) of "Muslim" with "radical Islam" ... to the point where I started a thread about it, shocked that it seemed a lot of people apparently couldn't tell the difference.

I suppose my views on MN are very much shaped by the "discussions" on here for at least a year after 7/10. Maybe I am naive, and I am certainly clumsy on social media (I have no FB/X/Insta profile). But the gaslighting and hatred of Israel and the Jewish people in the immediate aftermath of 7/10 left me stunned and I continue to be wary of stories that feed into this, because I am not sure who is disseminating them. I am not a naturally paranoid person, but there was so much bullying and perverse censorship that I became anxious about Hamas actively controlling the narrative around the whole situation.

Of course there are questions to be asked about the way Israel has responded to the invasion/atrocities/whatever you want to call it (I too search for adequate words). But there seems to be something else going on here.

For example, on another thread (that I can't be arsed dealing with), yet again someone has mentioned the IDF accidentally shooting Israeli hostages - as proof that they will just shoot anything. That seems a perverse interpretation of a tragedy that surely any compassionate human being would view differently. Except... it's the IDF, so hey ho, call for the death of every single one of them from the stage of Glastonbury, why not?! - to rounds of applause, why not?!

I just can't imagine the same abuse being heaped upon Muslims as a fashion statement?

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 20:52

He helps me try to make sense of the horror and to recognise the ‘moral injury’ we all feel in our helplessness. He also talks about the possibility of healing from it.

ScrollingLeaves · 06/09/2025 21:01

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 18:16

I really urge anyone/everyone to watch this interview re is it genocide. I think it makes the important point that even if this isn’t legally a genocide, it is still not right and war crimes and crimes against humanity are being committed. I watched it a little while ago but I think the point is made that no state has ever been found guilty of genocide so the decision to do so will be taken very seriously by the judges and will set the tone/precedent for future conflicts,

Interestingly, there is a case being tried before SA v Israel is and it’s on very similar grounds (self defence allowing acts that could be deemed genocidal and the q of intent) - it’ll be interesting to see where the judges land on the one as it could lay the groundwork for the SA case against Israel (which centres a lot on the genocidal rhetoric of Israeli politicians).

But I do think it’s important to note for people who say it is not a genocide that just because its not a genocide, that doesn’t mean that what is going on is acceptable and is something to support.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000010328913/when-is-it-genocide.html

But I do think it’s important to note for people who say it is not a genocide that just because its not a genocide, that doesn’t mean that what is going on is acceptable and is something to support.

This is the thing. Forget the word. Whatever it is, it is not ok.

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 21:30

...Just to add, I had the brainwave this evening of buying a headscarf, having remembered how useful it was for controlling hair in gale-force winds (my efforts with hair slides are pathetic). So I went on eBay and these were the first to come up after searching for a headscarf.

I understand anger and despair at the lives being lost in Gaza. But WTF is going on here???!?!? Why are all the algorithms set to this?

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say
PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:34

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 20:45

I share your concern about the conflation (!!!!!!! that word again!!!!!!! 😜) of "Muslim" with "radical Islam" ... to the point where I started a thread about it, shocked that it seemed a lot of people apparently couldn't tell the difference.

I suppose my views on MN are very much shaped by the "discussions" on here for at least a year after 7/10. Maybe I am naive, and I am certainly clumsy on social media (I have no FB/X/Insta profile). But the gaslighting and hatred of Israel and the Jewish people in the immediate aftermath of 7/10 left me stunned and I continue to be wary of stories that feed into this, because I am not sure who is disseminating them. I am not a naturally paranoid person, but there was so much bullying and perverse censorship that I became anxious about Hamas actively controlling the narrative around the whole situation.

Of course there are questions to be asked about the way Israel has responded to the invasion/atrocities/whatever you want to call it (I too search for adequate words). But there seems to be something else going on here.

For example, on another thread (that I can't be arsed dealing with), yet again someone has mentioned the IDF accidentally shooting Israeli hostages - as proof that they will just shoot anything. That seems a perverse interpretation of a tragedy that surely any compassionate human being would view differently. Except... it's the IDF, so hey ho, call for the death of every single one of them from the stage of Glastonbury, why not?! - to rounds of applause, why not?!

I just can't imagine the same abuse being heaped upon Muslims as a fashion statement?

I didn’t see the very early days post 7/10 on here but I can see how deeply disturbing that type of discussion would be after such atrocities. I’m sure that sadly you are right - some were very quick to show their antisemitism.

I think there is also an argument that some with a longer connection to Palestinian people (personal or professional so to speak) and their suffering over the past couple of decades were ‘anti-Israel’ for valid reasons (rather than antisemitism) pre 7/10 but I do not know the content of all the comments you are referring to or condone verbally attacking a country that was reeling from such a trauma.

So whilst I can see there being valid anti Israel sentiment long before 7/10 (which can’t just be fobbed off as Hamas propaganda), I think voicing it at that time was deeply inappropriate. Perhaps some will argue that they knew what Israel were going to do in retaliation and were therefore quick to speak up but I don’t believe I would have voiced my own concerns so immediately and, by the sounds of things, inappropriately/aggressively.

I think the issue for people re the IDF is that they have a bad reputation. There are stories from long before 7/10 in Gaza and their supervision of settler violence (terrorism) in the WB. So whilst I do not condone calling for the death of IDF soldiers, I do think they have earned a bad reputation because of their own actions. Again, not all people talking about the IDF will be speaking from this position. Some will sadly be antisemitic and some will sadly be chanting along because everyone else is. I wish they’d done a poll as people left the festival and asked them who/what the IDF is: I’m sure plenty of people had no clue.

So there is a very disturbing rise in antisemitism, I agree. I’m not sure who is driving that or if it’s any sort of coordinated effort. We also have much more emboldened Islamophobia. Politicians here and in the US, for example, are openly and shamelessly anti-Muslim and seemingly make no attempts to hide it. The anti-immigration issues are often conflated (why not join in!) with Islam being an threat to the UK and I really worry that that is a much louder and more mainstream/acceptable stance now which will only lead to more division, violence and hatred.

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:36

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 20:41

I didn’t see the post. I recommend watching Dr Gabor Mate speaking on ‘The right of self defence - but against who?’ He talks about how the phrase can be twisted to justify power against the powerless when there is a lack of context.

Everyone should watch clips of /read anything by Gabor Mate - he is excellent.

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:38

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 21:30

...Just to add, I had the brainwave this evening of buying a headscarf, having remembered how useful it was for controlling hair in gale-force winds (my efforts with hair slides are pathetic). So I went on eBay and these were the first to come up after searching for a headscarf.

I understand anger and despair at the lives being lost in Gaza. But WTF is going on here???!?!? Why are all the algorithms set to this?

Probably just because you have typed Gaza so much or perhaps spoken about it near your phone - I hate it! YOU DON’T KNOW ME (that’s me shouting at tech companies)

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:41

SharonEllis · 06/09/2025 19:50

Sure, the holocaust was genocide and it was post holocaust that much of our understanding of genocide was formulated. The desire to prove that the Jewish nation is perpetuating genocide taps straight into one of the major strands of modern antisemitism which is to exceptionalise Israel and the Jews, to see Israel as a colonial enterprise whicg inverts the oppressed/oppressor. I think the relish with which people go down this route is horrifying. As you say, what is happening in this war is hortific enough without adding this extra element. I think you do have to question why people wish to do it. When you see the accopanying attacks on Jewish people around the world then antisemitism is comlletely undeniable. You have to join the dots. Its not coincidence.

Thank you for explaining. I understand your concern and I’m sure some are definitely guilty of this.

I think it is also valid to read about the ICJ case, hear the genocidal language Israeli politicians have used and to see the scale of the devastation in Gaza and be concerned that it will be confirmed as a legal genocide. I also still believe that some use the word to try and capture the horror of the situation.

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 21:56

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:38

Probably just because you have typed Gaza so much or perhaps spoken about it near your phone - I hate it! YOU DON’T KNOW ME (that’s me shouting at tech companies)

I searched on my laptop and (forgot to mention this 🫢) narrowed it down to "collectables" ... looking for a vintage scarf just like the gazillions I have thrown away over the past few decades. In the past, I'd expect to see, I don't know, Hermes or Patou or something. Not keffiyahs. Odd.

I promise you I do other things than type about Gaza all day! 😜 although I can see why you might get that impression...

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 22:28

This has absolutely nothing to do with the point of the thread.

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 23:44

Also facetiously Islamophobic

Everexpanding · 06/09/2025 23:47

One of the myriad reasons to indicate what is happening in Gaza is a genocide

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/06/unicef-under-5s-recovery-programmes-acute-malnutrition-gaza

OP posts:
Everexpanding · 06/09/2025 23:47

More than 7,000 under-fives in Gaza put in malnutrition recovery in two-week period

OP posts:
Everexpanding · 06/09/2025 23:49

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 23:44

Also facetiously Islamophobic

Islamophobia with emojis

OP posts:
hkathy · 07/09/2025 07:28

Beachtastic · 06/09/2025 21:30

...Just to add, I had the brainwave this evening of buying a headscarf, having remembered how useful it was for controlling hair in gale-force winds (my efforts with hair slides are pathetic). So I went on eBay and these were the first to come up after searching for a headscarf.

I understand anger and despair at the lives being lost in Gaza. But WTF is going on here???!?!? Why are all the algorithms set to this?

“Why are all algorithms set to this”
That’s not how algorithms work 😂😂

Beachtastic · 07/09/2025 09:12

hkathy · 07/09/2025 07:28

“Why are all algorithms set to this”
That’s not how algorithms work 😂😂

You are quite right 🙈🫢😬 I meant that the fact that all this came up first on an eBay search must reflect the popularity of the items.

How is my post "Islamophobia with emojis"? I doubt half the people ordering these are even Muslim!

I was just musing out loud about how "pro-Pal" paraphernalia (not just flags) seems to dominate the UK. I wish the message it conveyed was unambiguously one of peace, but Palestine Action and other groups have given it more sinister undertones (for me).

quantumbutterfly · 07/09/2025 09:39

Ellen2shoes · 06/09/2025 23:44

Also facetiously Islamophobic

How? @Everexpanding @Ellen2shoes explain.

Keffiyeh is cultural not religious. YArafat popularised it as a political statement.

Ellen2shoes · 07/09/2025 10:47

PinkBobby · 06/09/2025 21:36

Everyone should watch clips of /read anything by Gabor Mate - he is excellent.

Agreed!

Link I have just posted is on the topic of thread

Cinnyris · 07/09/2025 10:53

SharonEllis · 06/09/2025 19:50

Sure, the holocaust was genocide and it was post holocaust that much of our understanding of genocide was formulated. The desire to prove that the Jewish nation is perpetuating genocide taps straight into one of the major strands of modern antisemitism which is to exceptionalise Israel and the Jews, to see Israel as a colonial enterprise whicg inverts the oppressed/oppressor. I think the relish with which people go down this route is horrifying. As you say, what is happening in this war is hortific enough without adding this extra element. I think you do have to question why people wish to do it. When you see the accopanying attacks on Jewish people around the world then antisemitism is comlletely undeniable. You have to join the dots. Its not coincidence.

Lemkin based the crime of genocide on the Armenian genocide and the colonial genocides of the Americas, not on the Holocaust. His intellectual breakthrough (that the extermination of those peoples could be understood through systematic destruction and perceived membership of a group) came in the 20s and 30s. Indeed, in discursive scholarship generally (more-so contemporary scholarship than, say, latter-half 20th century scholarship), the crime of genocide is not understood in terms of the Holocaust. In his autobiography, Totally Unofficial, Lemkin recalls how he urged his family to flee after the invasion of Poland in 1939 because he could see how the crime that he had spent more than a decade developing a framework for was being perpetrated against the Jewish people of central and eastern Europe.

The Holocaust, the Shoah, is by far and away the best researched genocide, and Shoah scholarship is central to genocide scholarship in general: you can't do a genocide research degree without a focus on Shoah research, for good and obvious reasons. But the crime of genocide, both in its codification in the Genocide Convention, as well as in discursive scholarship isn't purely the codification/scholarship of the crime of the Holocaust. There was a while - and you can see this in the focus of genocide research scholarship in particular from the 1970s through 1990s when Holocaust research was front and centre - when comparative genocide frameworks were popular; understanding different genocides through how they compare with other, as yet better understood genocides. The temptation, then, is obviously to consider the best researched genocide to be paradigmatic. And certainly within public discourse, the Holocaust is considered to be the paradigmatic genocide. But this is to erase both Lemkin's original work, as well as to risk misunderstanding and delegitimising other genocides which don't-look-enough-like-the-Holocaust.

Genocide exists as a distinct crime. In a way, as other posters have touched upon, it can be understood as a systematic web of other crimes, given that those crimes are carried out with the overarching intent to destroy in part/as a whole a distinct (protected-identity) group. To prosecute those responsible for the individual crimes that together constitute genocide is one thing, and is a way of bringing the perpetrators to justice. But to prosecute the genocide as a whole is to do greater justice to the victims of genocide. It is very important that we do not shy away from calling a genocide a genocide. And for this reason, it is vitally important that we call Israel's genocide of Palestinians a genocide.

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. There will be antisemites who relish the opportunity to call Jews genocidaires. There are people filled with racist hatred who will pervert anything to their own hate-filled ends. But it is specious to suggest that their messed up motivations cast doubt on the motivations of nearly every major international humanitarian organisation (who all find that Israel is carrying out a genocide) as well as the general consensus among genocide scholars. Many of the articles on the Journal of Genocide Research are available to read without institutional access/without paying. We don't have to guess at their reasons for calling the Palestinian Genocide a genocide. They tell us their reasons in their work.

The fact that there are antisemites who, through their own commitment to Zionism, want to call Israel genocidal because it means that they feel they get to call Jews genocidal - and, of course, it is deeply antisemitic to conflate Jewishness with Israel - does not mean that we ought to be careful about calling the Palestinian Genocide, perpetrated by the state of Israel, a genocide.