New ceasefire agreement

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BBC report a new ceasefire agreement mediated by the US. Israel has agreed to it. Waiting for Hamas to decide if they also want a ceasefire.

It was, the counter from Hamas was for a permanent ceasefire

Hamas responded to a US ceasefire proposal by saying it is prepared to release 10 living Israeli hostages and 18 dead hostages in exchange for a number of Palestinian prisoners, while requesting some amendments to the plan.
The group repeated its demands for a permanent truce, a complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and guarantees for the continuous flow of humanitarian aid. None of these are in the deal on the table.

The deal on the table included Israel allowing a flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. See Point number 3 Humanitarian Assistance on the list I posted at 2.32 this afternoon.

Which is hardly surprising really as
it was very one sided
and
Hamas, unlike Israel, had no say in the original contents.

So I’m not surprised it wasn’t acceptable
perhaps if it was the same as stages 2 and 3 of the previous ceasefire they would have gone ahead. They’d agreed to all that

Hamas agreed to the previous ceasefire.
Netanyahu reneged on it part way through refusing to continue after stage 1 which included withdrawal etc

There would be a lot more people still alive and all the hostages back home by now. Instead
He got some hostages back and then started bombing again.

Well exactly
Lets not forget these ceasefires never include the West bank
No sooner do the IDF hand back Palestinian detainees as part of a ceasefire than they re arrest louds more in the West Bank. The bombing by the IDF and attacks by Israeli settlers also continue through these ceasefires.

Netanyahus plan was always to take Gaza and rename it as Israel
We all know that surely
We’ve all seen the news from September 2023
He will never agree to a ceasefire until he’s flying the Israeli flag there

@mids2019 these demands by Hamas are the same as the previous ceasefire agreement that both sides agreed to only for Netanyahu to backtrack after just Stage 1.
This has already been agreed
How then
Can it be so unreasonable

This is the US and Netanyahu not getting what they want
Of course they’re going to spout this nonsense.

Why did Israel pull out of the last ceasefire
I think it looks like the US forgets they can’t be trusted ….or maybe they really don’t care

It like like the refusal came about by Hamas essentially adding new demands to the agreed conditions for cease fire therefore to all intents and purposes rejecting the ceasefire proposal without formally doing so. The end result is the same which is a real shame to all those concerned and begs the question what does Hamas want and does it really know it is as Trump says 'a mess'.

Things have changed since Stage 1 of the ceasefire ended. Hamas were in a stronger position then and could have negotiated a better deal than they are now able to. But they lost that opportunity, talks reached an impasse and Israel began a new airstrike. Phase 2 never started.

The Israeli prime minister's office said the action was ordered after Hamas's "repeated refusal to release our hostages" and its rejection of new ceasefire proposals by the US and mediators. Sound familiar?

Since then, Hamas have lost thousands of soldiers and most of their senior leadership based in Gaza have been hunted down and killed. Their so called allies aren't supporting them militarily and the people they rule with an iron fist are daring to protest against them when they wouldn't have dared to in the past.

When you lose a war you don't get to dictate terms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5klgv5zv0o

They aren’t really new demands though. The “new” demands are basically the later stages of the earlier ceasefire which was initially agreed by all sides, which never progressed to completion.

I find it mental that anyone would think Hamas would agree to the current deal proposed by Israel and the US. What could the possibly get out of it? Israel would still control the aid so it really can’t be relied on and it could stop it again whenever it wanted, control the region and the promise of a military ceasefire was incredibly temporary. There’s really nothing in that deal for Palestine.

You mean there’s nothing in the deal for Hamas.

The deal for Palestinian civilians would have been a 60 day minimum respite from the war, an opportunity for aid to flow as freely as it did during the last ceasefire and most importantly, meaningful discussions between both sides with the help of external negotiators as to how the war could end without more loss of life.

Hamas would have needed to end their rule in Gaza and that is why they won’t accept it - preferring instead to carry on fighting.

I agree with you that Hamas should relinquish all power and disarm . I know in May there were articles stating they would give up power but they were never agreeable to disarmament which everyone can see is necessary.

However I don't believe that this is a golden deal for Palestinian civilians.
The last time there was a ceasefire very little aid did trickle in and most items such as tents etc were still banned.
The last ceasefire they Palestinians started making their way to what was left of their homes regrouping themselves and finding families. There was a sense of cautious optimism.

However this ceasefire was broken on 18th March with vicious airstrikes that came with no warning.

Since then 4117 people have died. The terms and conditions of the last ceasefire were very similar to this one and Israel broke that with no consequences from the international community.

You can't keep doing this psychological torture to a people already broken after 18 months. Every night thinking this is the night they will break the ceasefire. Yes you could say it is better than the current constant bombardment but is it that much better?

I didn’t say it was a golden deal for Palestinian civilians.

It wasn’t a golden deal for the Israel side either.

But it could have been a positive step & definitely did not offer “nothing” as suggested by @Sofiewoo

Ok I won't use the word golden.

But every Palestinian knows a permanent ceasefire is not on the cards, not one that allows them to stay in Gaza anyway. They have heard the rhetoric from Netanyahu and other ministers about their displacement.

I'm sure they also know that Hamas will not concede their weapons either.

They thereforeo do know that any ceasefire is only temporary and it for want of a better word a complete head fuck as they try to rebuild their lives only for it to be blown apart again.

I do think the deal is a lot more beneficial for the Israelis... Hostages returned and not compelled to leave Gaza or stop hostilities permanently.

And I know you are probably thinking well what's the alternative and I'll be honest I don't know . But when Israel has killed 4117 people and counting since the last ceasefire it is hard to make negotiations meaningful.

Also @Martymcfly24 its true that the Israel air strikes came with no warning. However the 2 sides were not in a ceasefire at the time as phase 1 had ended and phase 2 had yet to begin.

Netanyahu called them “preemptive strikes” because Israel carried the fear that Hamas would attack them again with no warning like they did on October 7th.

The talks had stalled & Hamas had rejected a US proposed ceasefire. Just like now … so what will happen next is pretty obvious.

I agree the deal is more beneficial for the Israelis. That is because they are the side that could be said to be “winning” the war (I know some people don’t like that expression but ultimately one side will be seen looking back to have won this war).

Did talks stalling justify though massive overnight airstrikes that did not target any Hamas but instead were blanket bombing civilians. I personally don't think so.

I know you say that is preemptive to another October 7th but I don't think Hamas have enough power/support/resources to ever do that again (please God) but I do understand the fear of Israeli civilians that it could. It is the same torture of the unknown the Palestinians have suffered.

I know what you are saying that the victors negotiate the treaty but I don't think this is a war in the traditional sense. Unlike the wars of the early 20th century where there was fighting and then everyone went back to their own countries this is much more nuanced and has the added factor that ultimately the Israeli leader wants to clear the area out.

It is much more comparable to the Good Friday agreement where both sides had to make substantial concessions to ensure it moved forward.

They may be winning the war on the ground. They have the money for it but

They are not winning the war in the hearts and minds of the World.
they lost that many many months ago.
Anyone who thinks the world will look back on this war and hail the Israelis as the victors has had their head in the sand.

This is no longer and will never be a victory for the Israeli people.

Do we always believe every word that comes out of Netanyahus mouth!
Or do we question his words and actions. Most people question the actions of others

Just because Netanyahu called the strikes ‘preemptive’ and justified them because he was scared Hamas might attack again does everyone really believe him. Why?

Its perfectly obvious the bombings had nothing to do with attacking Hamas.
He was carpet bombing civilians and nothing more
Just like when the IDF shot at delegates from various countries just for getting out of their cars and walking up the road.
Or when they shoot kids for throwing stones or playing football
It’s clear anyone that isn’t the IDF is a legitimate target.

Do you think people will forget these war crimes.
Netanyahu and his Israel can never win this war. They have already lost it !

Well as long as you don't think Hamas would ever launch another massacre on Israeli citizens out of the blue then I'm sure they can sleep easy. It's true that Hamas wouldn't have the resources to do it immediately but it seems highly likely they would do it again if they were given the opportunity to regroup (based on their stated goals).

I think we fundamentally differ in that you seem to assume that the Israel government don't care about killing civilians whereas I think most of them do but it is necessary for their army to kill civilians in their pursuit of destroying Hamas. Who hide amongst civilians in a way that in untypical in wartime.

Time will tell how this ends. I think Hamas will be forced to make substantial concessions in the end because they are losing so much power, militarily and financially. They are just dragging out the inevitable, in my opinion.

It's the huge number of Palestinian people getting killed (civilian heavy due to how Hamas operate) that means it is imperative for both sides to negotiate and end this war as soon as possible. Even a temporary ceasefire is better than another few hundred/thousand getting killed while the war continues. And there's always the hope that a permanent ceasefire can come out of negotiations during a temporary one.

@Stirabout I definitely don't believe every word that comes out of Netanyahu's mouth. Or any politician for that matter. I don't believe that he had to withhold aid for as long as he chose to, for example.

But I do believe that Israel were scared about the possibility of Hamas attacking them again. Who wouldn't be, in their position? So yes, I do believe that he resumed the war for the reason given.

You say that Israel can never win this war but I think you're talking in a different sense to me - you and the people you know will never forget what you see as war crimes. I'm saying they will win the war in the more traditional meaning of the term. I believe Israel will achieve most of their objectives, possibly even all of them and Hamas won't. Hamas will lose control of Gaza and have to leave but if you want to consider that they still "won" then you're entitled to your opinion.

What do you think the inevitable looks like though @Twiglets1 ? I know we both hope that Hamas will relinquish all power and disband/disarm. To be perfectly honest I don't care what happens to them and hope that is their inevitable.

What I am concerned about is what the inevitable looks like for Palestinian civilians under the terms of the ceasefire. If this is not done right the whole area will be condemned to repeat mistakes. Are Israel ever prepared to allow a Palestinian state with a government that do not have the aim of killing Israeli's/ Jewish people.

And I really don't think all the Israeli government don't care about killing civilians I just think there is a very loud minority faction that don't.

They are not winning the war in the hearts and minds of the World.

I'm not so sure. The Hamas water-carriers are certainly loud, and very active on SM, but I think a great many people quietly support Israel and understand the existential risk they face.