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Conflict in the Middle East
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7
Comedycook · 29/01/2025 07:53

beachcitygirl · 29/01/2025 07:47

@Comedycook because Gaza is happening right now.

Ok...so any memorial or commemoration about any conflict/war/atrocity, we should mention Gaza because it's happening now? Just trying to understand. What about other things going on now....Yemen, the DRC, Myanmar, Sudan.... should we mention those too at every memorial/commemoration for anything?

Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 07:55

ZebraPyjamas · 29/01/2025 06:56

People are defending this because they do not think President Higgins said anything offensive. Surely you can understand that other people might think differently to you?

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I don’t think your view that he didn’t do anything offensive is the relevant view here.
The Fact that you don’t think it was offensive doesn’t change the fact that Jewish attendees were offended, had asked him not to speak and were ignored. Because people like you decided their views didn’t matter.

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Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 07:59

ZebraPyjamas · 29/01/2025 06:54

So you are speaking for all Irish Jews here? You’re certain they are all appalled??

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That is irrelevant. Why should you have to insist that every single Irish Jew is offended before you act to defend those who were.

It was Holocaust Memorial Day remember? Jewish feelings and sensitivities should matter more than your feelings on that occasion

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Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:00

Puppalicious · 29/01/2025 07:22

I think the people most qualified as to whether Higgins said something offensive to Jewish people are Jewish people to be honest, and I don’t think there are any on this thread? I think Netanyahu’s regime’s actions over the last 16 months have been horrendous, and there is disgusting dehumanisation of Palestinians by some Israelis, but the Holocaust and the events in Gaza are just very different things, both in scale and background (unless we’re saying the Holocaust was precipitated by 80 years of bloody conflict over land between the Germans and Palestinians, that the immediate precursor was the murder and rape of thousands of Germans by Jewish people and that the Germans feared annihilation by a Jewish terrorist group) so the only reason to mention it at the Holocaust is the Jewish connection. Yes - dehumanisation is common to both (on both sides) but there are so many examples of that across the world.
I found this article very interesting:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2025/01/29/many-irish-friends-agree-with-michael-d-higgins-but-here-in-israel-there-is-anger-and-revulsion/?

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Absolutely agree with all of this.

Particularly the reasoning for connecting the Holocaust and Gaza which I find troubling

OP posts:
BeccaS34 · 29/01/2025 08:05

I don’t think this was smart.

One, Israel was sneak attacked on Oct 7th

Two, several hostages died and others weren’t released for over a year

Three, MENA countries like Egypt were trying to broker a ceasefire as early as 1-2 months after the attack. Hamas was going to the table but refusing to divulge the status of hostages. If you look at the details of the most recent armed conflict, Hamas probably could’ve ended this much earlier

I know it’s a longer history than just this most recent conflict. But this really was something where like, Israel was rightly terrified. Hamas attacked concertgoers. They attacked kibbutzes that made it a point to hire Palestinians because they wanted greater equality. And then Hamas didn’t come to the earlier ceasefire negotiations in a serious way. So I do think he’s wrong here.

This is very unlike Hitler targeting the disabled followed by Jews and Roma etc then exterminating them. It’s just not the same. and the hostages who were just returned what a week ago? It’s also insensitive to them.

Thisandthatandthensome · 29/01/2025 08:05

LetThereBeLove · 28/01/2025 18:21

Absolutely not. And Higgins was asked not to attend the memorial and when he did, made it all about himself and his politics.
Some Jewish attendees were so appalled they turned their backs on him and were brutally bundled out of the memorial. It was disgusting to witness.
There is no room for politics at a Holocaust Memorial. And Higgins should be ashamed of himself, but of course he's not.

That's awful bundled out for turning their backs. Wow.

I don't think it was correct for him to do this.

"Ireland becoming a hostile place'
On Monday, Dana Erlich said that by referencing the war in Gaza in the manner that he did, at this particular event with no reference to any other conflict, the president "consciously chose to draw an analogy" between current events and World War Two.

She added: "The concerns of the Irish Jewish and Israeli communities about Ireland becoming a hostile place, a place where they are reluctant to express their Jewish identity and heritage, are not being addressed sufficiently".

Erlich also accused President Higgins of ignoring "the obvious link between the Holocaust and the state of Israel and how our country became a refuge for survivors of the worst genocide in history".

'Ugly and regrettable"

Liv999 · 29/01/2025 08:08

Martymcfly24 · 28/01/2025 22:04

They are not outside his remit @junebirthdaygirl he can speak about what he wants, the only time it is censured is when the President makes a formal address to either the Oireachtas or the Nation on a matter of national importance, the address must first be approved by the Government

This is exactly what I as an Irish person voted for him for and I am so proud of him.

Me too!

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:18

MissAmbrosia · 28/01/2025 20:18

Ronald Lauder did the same at the Holocaust memorial - but he got a standing ovation. He said something along the lines of "the canary in the cage is the Jews - they came on Oct 7th for the Jews and now THEY are coming for everyone else, to destroy western civilisation" It was very clear who he meant by THEY, clear allusion to the Nazis, and there was some visible discomfort on faces of the various royals in the front row. I totally agree with OP though - yesterday was not the day for this. His speech was much acclaimed.

This was chilling to listen to. His 'They' is not the Nazis, btw.

That a speech containing overt hatred of and tropes regarding a minority group was much acclaimed is deeply concerning and shows how unsafe Europe and the world really is for many minority groups. No wonder people looked uncomfortable.

Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:25

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:18

This was chilling to listen to. His 'They' is not the Nazis, btw.

That a speech containing overt hatred of and tropes regarding a minority group was much acclaimed is deeply concerning and shows how unsafe Europe and the world really is for many minority groups. No wonder people looked uncomfortable.

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The Irish Jews are a tiny minority and I would imagine feel very vulnerable with the constant references to Gaza whenever Jewishness is mentioned. This one day should have been respected.

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Thisandthatandthensome · 29/01/2025 08:26

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/01/2025 22:00

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41561824.html

“Ms Degani, a German Jewish woman with Israeli citizenship, was one of those who walked out of the ceremony during the President's speech.…
The speech "deteriorated" when the President "stopped talking about the Holocaust" and instead "launched again into a speech about human rights, then about Israel and Gaza, which was exactly what the community asked him not to do", she said.
Ms Degani said that if the President had wanted to speak about a current event he should have addressed the rise in antisemitism in Ireland.
"He chose to make it again about Israel and Gaza, not even mentioning other conflicts around the world," Ms Degani said.
"Again lecturing the Jewish people in the audience, the Irish Jews, about how we should be, or what we should care about or not. It is diminishing the Holocaust."

This. It was a holocaust memorial.

Humfree · 29/01/2025 08:31

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:18

This was chilling to listen to. His 'They' is not the Nazis, btw.

That a speech containing overt hatred of and tropes regarding a minority group was much acclaimed is deeply concerning and shows how unsafe Europe and the world really is for many minority groups. No wonder people looked uncomfortable.

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The 'they' here were surely Hamas, the Islamist terrorists who plainly do hate Western civilisation. It was Hamas who committed the 7th October pogrom and they state their values very openly.

ZebraPyjamas · 29/01/2025 08:32

OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 07:55

I don’t think your view that he didn’t do anything offensive is the relevant view here.
The Fact that you don’t think it was offensive doesn’t change the fact that Jewish attendees were offended, had asked him not to speak and were ignored. Because people like you decided their views didn’t matter.

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“People like you” because I disagree with your view you’re making all sorts of assumptions about me, while knowing nothing at all about me, interesting.

I’m not insisting anything, you’re the one saying Irish Jews are appalled, I’m wondering how do you know how they all feel? I’m sure, as with any group of people, there are differing views here too.

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:34

OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:25

The Irish Jews are a tiny minority and I would imagine feel very vulnerable with the constant references to Gaza whenever Jewishness is mentioned. This one day should have been respected.

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I didn't comment on that yet, did I?

bombastix · 29/01/2025 08:36

There is a thoughtful piece in the Irish Times this morning on this.

And yes, it was a serious mistake, I do not think he should have done it.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2025/01/29/many-irish-friends-agree-with-michael-d-higgins-but-here-in-israel-there-is-anger-and-revulsion/

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:37

Humfree · 29/01/2025 08:31

The 'they' here were surely Hamas, the Islamist terrorists who plainly do hate Western civilisation. It was Hamas who committed the 7th October pogrom and they state their values very openly.

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Nope, not Hamas either.

It's Muslims. He's talking about Muslims as a whole. This is how some (a lot, actually) people view Muslims. Collective responsibility for the terrorist atrocities of an extremist group, and the "they're coming for you" rhetoric that gets repeated across Europe and the US.

Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:37

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:34

I didn't comment on that yet, did I?

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No but I was following on for your comment. Is that ok?

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Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:40

ZebraPyjamas · 29/01/2025 08:32

“People like you” because I disagree with your view you’re making all sorts of assumptions about me, while knowing nothing at all about me, interesting.

I’m not insisting anything, you’re the one saying Irish Jews are appalled, I’m wondering how do you know how they all feel? I’m sure, as with any group of people, there are differing views here too.

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Why do all Irish Jews have to be appalled for this to matter?

Your comments have led me to believe you don’t care about offending Jewish feelings on Holocaust day

(Do all women have to feel equally strongly about the abuse of women for it to matter?)

OP posts:
Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:44

OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:37

No but I was following on for your comment. Is that ok?

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How does your comment do anything other than try to paint a previous comment in a poor light? The comment I posted was not in relation to the speech made by Higgins, it was pointing out that a speech made by Lauder (not even at the same event as Higgins) that someone felt was positive was actually very concerning.

Before posting my views on Higgins's speech (which actually I didn't like), I was reading through the other 6 pages of comments while writing mine. I'll post that soon and then you can criticise that too because I'm confident it won't be good enough for you.

ZebraPyjamas · 29/01/2025 08:51

OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 08:40

Why do all Irish Jews have to be appalled for this to matter?

Your comments have led me to believe you don’t care about offending Jewish feelings on Holocaust day

(Do all women have to feel equally strongly about the abuse of women for it to matter?)

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The fact that I don’t think his speech was
offensive leads you to believe I don’t care about offending Jewish feelings? That doesn’t make any sense

In life in general people get offended by all sorts, doesn’t mean they’re right! Hence my wondering how widespread the actual offence is.

Abuse of women or abuse of anybody for that matter is not comparable, that's a ridiculous question.

LittleBigHead · 29/01/2025 08:59

Totally totally unacceptable. If anyone with half a heart has heard survivors of the death and slave camps speak of their experiences, they would know why Israel must exist.

It’s despicable to use Holocaust Remembrance Day for anything else. There has never been such an industrialised State planned and delivered attempt to eradicate an entire race, religion and culture as the Nazi Holocaust.

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 09:09

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/01/2025 18:16

Disclaimer: Not Irish; not Jewish.

My initial emotional reaction to Higgins's speech was that I didn't like it and felt he should have been more focused on the people who were victims of the Holocaust - the majority of the people persecuted, tortured and killed were Jewish, but his speech didn't reflect this, and he barely mentioned other groups, so this didn't feel like a case of making efforts to remember everyone but getting the 'balance' wrong. My family included people who I never got to meet because they died in the Holocaust and in efforts to save people from the Holocaust. I didn't feel that he referenced other groups to respect and remember them, but in a way that diluted the brutal targeting of the Holocaust at Jewish people. I think there can be a space at anniversaries such as this to reflect on how history can repeat itself unless we learn from the past, on how we can strive to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, to prevent genocides and work towards peace. But there are many conflicts going on around the world in which those lessons and reflections are valid, and he only really referenced one - the one which is associated with significant increases in antisemitism and trauma for Jewish people (as well as significant trauma and harm for Palestinians and Muslims internationally, but this wasn't an event remembering the mass murder of Muslims). If he'd wanted to discuss modern conflicts, he could have referenced the Israel/Gaza conflict alongside others, like the DRC, Sudan, Yemen, and made it far less prominent in his speech. If he felt unable to do that, I feel like he should have not mentioned any modern conflicts at the event.

bombastix · 29/01/2025 09:11

Well he won't be invited back next year!

Foolish man, wagging his finger at them. Why did it matter so much to him to be "right". Character flaw that he couldn't save his remarks for another time and venue

Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 09:34

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:44

How does your comment do anything other than try to paint a previous comment in a poor light? The comment I posted was not in relation to the speech made by Higgins, it was pointing out that a speech made by Lauder (not even at the same event as Higgins) that someone felt was positive was actually very concerning.

Before posting my views on Higgins's speech (which actually I didn't like), I was reading through the other 6 pages of comments while writing mine. I'll post that soon and then you can criticise that too because I'm confident it won't be good enough for you.

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No your comment was absolutely fine!
I was just responding to it .

OP posts:
Original poster
OpheliaWasntMad · 29/01/2025 09:36

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 09:09

Disclaimer: Not Irish; not Jewish.

My initial emotional reaction to Higgins's speech was that I didn't like it and felt he should have been more focused on the people who were victims of the Holocaust - the majority of the people persecuted, tortured and killed were Jewish, but his speech didn't reflect this, and he barely mentioned other groups, so this didn't feel like a case of making efforts to remember everyone but getting the 'balance' wrong. My family included people who I never got to meet because they died in the Holocaust and in efforts to save people from the Holocaust. I didn't feel that he referenced other groups to respect and remember them, but in a way that diluted the brutal targeting of the Holocaust at Jewish people. I think there can be a space at anniversaries such as this to reflect on how history can repeat itself unless we learn from the past, on how we can strive to make sure the Holocaust never happens again, to prevent genocides and work towards peace. But there are many conflicts going on around the world in which those lessons and reflections are valid, and he only really referenced one - the one which is associated with significant increases in antisemitism and trauma for Jewish people (as well as significant trauma and harm for Palestinians and Muslims internationally, but this wasn't an event remembering the mass murder of Muslims). If he'd wanted to discuss modern conflicts, he could have referenced the Israel/Gaza conflict alongside others, like the DRC, Sudan, Yemen, and made it far less prominent in his speech. If he felt unable to do that, I feel like he should have not mentioned any modern conflicts at the event.

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Thank you I agree. An excellent post and sums up how I feel.

I actually wasn’t trying to paint your previous comment in a negative light. Apologies if that’s how it seemed.
I was trying to keep the thread on topic ( but possibly clumsily)

OP posts:
Humfree · 29/01/2025 09:50

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 08:37

Nope, not Hamas either.

It's Muslims. He's talking about Muslims as a whole. This is how some (a lot, actually) people view Muslims. Collective responsibility for the terrorist atrocities of an extremist group, and the "they're coming for you" rhetoric that gets repeated across Europe and the US.

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How do you know he is referring to Muslims as a whole? I haven't seen the full speech but from the quote it seems to me that he's talking about the perpetrators of Oct 7th.