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Conflict in the Middle East

Gaza 2 years from now -will the Palestinians ultimately emigrate?

84 replies

mids2019 · 17/11/2024 06:05

I think one thing that is looking increasingly inevitable is that Gaza is soon to become uninhabitable from the point of a view of people having the prospect of something akin to a comfortable healthy life with prospects for future generations. The infrastructure looks like it is beyond the reasonable prospect of repair in a time frame less than decades.

From a simply humanitarian point of view will there be moved to emigrate Palestinians as the reality is simply none would want to live or being up children in a wasteland? With he Trump team seeming to to be supportive of some of the ambitions of Israel will there become a real politik of mass displacement of people in the future and the abandonment of Gaza as a habitable piece of land?

OP posts:
username358 · 18/11/2024 16:10

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 16:05

Because of UNWRA, they, and their children, and their children's children (on the male line only) will ALWAYS be Palestinian refugees, no matter where they live. Palestinians can never truly emigrate because they are always counted as refugees, unlike other refugees who are allowed to integrate into new countries and build new lives.

I thought they were refugees because an occupying force wouldn't let them back home.

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 16:33

username358 · 18/11/2024 16:10

I thought they were refugees because an occupying force wouldn't let them back home.

Borders change, wars happen, people become refugees. All other refugees from wars, disasters, persecution, are allowed to resettle elsewhere if they cannot resettle in their home country.

Only Palestinians are kept in a perpetual refugee state, pawns in a bigger war, a new diaspora.

username358 · 18/11/2024 16:54

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 16:33

Borders change, wars happen, people become refugees. All other refugees from wars, disasters, persecution, are allowed to resettle elsewhere if they cannot resettle in their home country.

Only Palestinians are kept in a perpetual refugee state, pawns in a bigger war, a new diaspora.

They can resettle in their own country, as it still (just about) exists. Many refugees go back to their country once there's peace. Palestinians are kept in a permanent refugee state because they can't go home.

Dulra · 18/11/2024 16:57

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 16:33

Borders change, wars happen, people become refugees. All other refugees from wars, disasters, persecution, are allowed to resettle elsewhere if they cannot resettle in their home country.

Only Palestinians are kept in a perpetual refugee state, pawns in a bigger war, a new diaspora.

So lets work towards a two state solution and the recognition of a Palestinian State

CamelTail · 18/11/2024 17:01

username358 · 18/11/2024 16:54

They can resettle in their own country, as it still (just about) exists. Many refugees go back to their country once there's peace. Palestinians are kept in a permanent refugee state because they can't go home.

There is difference within Palestine. Gazans and WeatBank have different govwrning authorities and mindsets (of course nkt100% but enough to make it different beflrw anykne goes after that)

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:02

Dulra · 18/11/2024 16:57

So lets work towards a two state solution and the recognition of a Palestinian State

That would be wonderful, Israelis and Palestinians living peacefully side by side; do you think it's a real possibility at this point?

username358 · 18/11/2024 17:04

CamelTail · 18/11/2024 17:01

There is difference within Palestine. Gazans and WeatBank have different govwrning authorities and mindsets (of course nkt100% but enough to make it different beflrw anykne goes after that)

I don't understand your point.

Dulra · 18/11/2024 17:13

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:02

That would be wonderful, Israelis and Palestinians living peacefully side by side; do you think it's a real possibility at this point?

No not when Isreal are currently demolishing Gaza and killing tens of thousands of people. But it has to part of peace negotiations if and when they happen

DonutRings · 18/11/2024 17:18

Tel12 · 18/11/2024 13:29

They are prepared to die there so I doubt they'd voluntarily leave.

'Prepared to die'?! They don't have a choice!

The lack of humanity from some posters on this thread is shocking.

Glad other posters are giving a good amount of pushback.

username358 · 18/11/2024 17:23

DonutRings · 18/11/2024 17:18

'Prepared to die'?! They don't have a choice!

The lack of humanity from some posters on this thread is shocking.

Glad other posters are giving a good amount of pushback.

The lack of humanity from some posters on this thread is shocking.

I'm used to it now.

Scirocco · 18/11/2024 17:27

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:02

That would be wonderful, Israelis and Palestinians living peacefully side by side; do you think it's a real possibility at this point?

Better to work to try to achieve that, than support mass killing of civilians, occupation, annexation and the destruction of a people.

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:32

Scirocco · 18/11/2024 17:27

Better to work to try to achieve that, than support mass killing of civilians, occupation, annexation and the destruction of a people.

So, imagine Israel withdraws, what next? How do we get to peace from here?

DonutRings · 18/11/2024 17:39

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:32

So, imagine Israel withdraws, what next? How do we get to peace from here?

How do you get peace if Israel doesn't withdraw? Oh, you're in favour of total annexation aren't you...

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:41

DonutRings · 18/11/2024 17:39

How do you get peace if Israel doesn't withdraw? Oh, you're in favour of total annexation aren't you...

Don't make assumptions. I don't see how we get to peace while Hamas govern Gaza; their stated aim is the destruction of the 'Zionist entity'. So, what next?

username358 · 18/11/2024 17:42

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:41

Don't make assumptions. I don't see how we get to peace while Hamas govern Gaza; their stated aim is the destruction of the 'Zionist entity'. So, what next?

What's your solution?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 18/11/2024 17:44

User37482 · 17/11/2024 07:16

Think the birth rate has got a lot to do with early marriages, Gazan women tend to be well educated (often better educated than the men) but a significant portion are married very young so have longer fertile years. I would also suggest as is the case in many traditional societies women don’t have complete control over their own fertility. Usually as education increases fertility goes down.

https://aisha.ps/en/statistics/35

This shouldn’t be a political issue btw, it should be a children’s rights issue. About 20% of Palestinian women were married before 18 according to that link.

Edited

I read an article saying that many Palestinian women choose to have large families as an act of resistance against an occupying power that often kills many children before they reach adulthood, and has been for decades trying to reduce the population of Palestinians.

Dulra · 18/11/2024 17:52

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 17:41

Don't make assumptions. I don't see how we get to peace while Hamas govern Gaza; their stated aim is the destruction of the 'Zionist entity'. So, what next?

I don't see how we get to peace while the current government governs Israel they have made a lot of genocidal statements about Palestinians in Gaza. So what next?

ThisOldThang · 18/11/2024 17:59

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SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 18/11/2024 18:01

It’s the leaders of Hamas that were extremist and the leaders of Israel that are extremist and hell bent on no peace.

Assassinating leaders usually leads to more extreme extremists getting into power with even more reasons to hate and refuse to negotiate a peace.

The result of decades of killing off moderates, is we have extremist leaders with a by any means, at any price mentality.

It’s the leaders & their political parties that need to be replaced on both sides.
Israel doesn’t need to go, but Netanhyu and all of Likud& their coalition need to go.

The Palestinian Authority doesn’t need to go, but Hamas does.

New leaders/ruling party and a two state solution is what is needed.

gloriagloria · 18/11/2024 18:12

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 18/11/2024 17:44

I read an article saying that many Palestinian women choose to have large families as an act of resistance against an occupying power that often kills many children before they reach adulthood, and has been for decades trying to reduce the population of Palestinians.

Fertility in Gaza has dropped massively since 2000 - before the war the total fertility rate was around 3.4 so relatively high but a huge drop from around 6 in 2000. Not a huge difference from the Jewish population in Israel which has a TFR of just over 3 (but 6.3 for the ultra-orthodox population).

User37482 · 18/11/2024 18:18

gloriagloria · 18/11/2024 18:12

Fertility in Gaza has dropped massively since 2000 - before the war the total fertility rate was around 3.4 so relatively high but a huge drop from around 6 in 2000. Not a huge difference from the Jewish population in Israel which has a TFR of just over 3 (but 6.3 for the ultra-orthodox population).

I think it’s probably similar to Israel (and everywhere else) in that religious people just have more kids. I’m not sure people have children as an act of resistance. People have to live their lives , a few will make everything they do about political situations but most won’t, they do have to actually look after those children

I suspect the idea of birthing as an act of resistance is a romanticism from the west rather than a reality for Gazan women. You can’t replace a child, it doesn’t matter where the child or mother comes from. I wouldn’t be having endless children in that situation to resist anything, I would be trying to feed, educate and protect the children I do have.

User37482 · 18/11/2024 18:23

CamelTail · 17/11/2024 08:41

Jordan did the right thing and offered naturalisation to anyone who wanted it.
To those from West bank Jordan actually governed for a bit. Post late 60s don't get citizenship afaik. Also many from those who did get it don't have family books and so certain rights within Jordan as citizens with family books.
Also... They tried to ovethrow the Hashemites....

so still a bit shit for Palestinians, yeah I was aware of the assassination attempt, I was surprised they would have done that given they were basically given asylum.

I wonder how many Gazans were treated as Egyptians from when Egypt occupied Gaza.

It”s such a messy history.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 18/11/2024 18:33

I suspect the idea of birthing as an act of resistance is a romanticism from the west rather than a reality for Gazan women. You can’t replace a child, it doesn’t matter where the child or mother comes from. I wouldn’t be having endless children in that situation to resist anything, I would be trying to feed, educate and protect the children I do have.

There isn’t anything romantic about a reality where mothers often lose one or more children to an IDF attack. The women choosing large families are not doing so to replace children, but because there is high risk some are going to die violently before you. The reality is that you can’t protect your children if you live in Gaza or the West Bank from extrajudicial killing or arrest and imprisonment.

This isn’t the article I read- the one I read was the transcript of an interview at the start of the war with Gazan women where the female interviewer sort of kidded them about why they choose to have “so many children” when food insecurity and poverty is high and one woman said “you know only half our kids survive..”

Here is an older article that shows this isn’t new
”One puzzle, however, is why so many Gazan women – especially those that are well-educated – choose to have large families rather than pursue careers. In most countries, the birth rate usually falls hand in hand with better education and more career opportunities for women, but the pattern in Gaza fails to follow this pattern.
A study published in 2006 found that despite high educational achievement among Gazan women – all have at least nine years of schooling – and relatively low and constant infant mortality rates at around 25 per 1000 births, few chose to pursue independent careers. During the Intifada uprising that began in 1987, the research found, there was a surge in marriage rates, with many educated women prepared to marry men who were less well-educated.
“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.”
Call to arms
Randall’s study, involving interviews with 16,204 Gazan women and 4900 Jordanian women for comparison, concluded that the Intifada was a key driving factor for the surge in marriage and fertility. In the Intifada years of 1989 and 1990, for example, women were 1.4 times more likely to marry than in 1980. The rate during the Intifada was even higher, at twice that in 1980, for more educated women.
“Whether the phenomenally high fertility levels in Gaza are also a more long-term response to political oppression and a perceived need to increase the numbers of Palestinians cannot be inferred from the data available, but it certainly seems to be a plausible hypothesis,” concludes Randall’s study. “In a situation where disempowerment, underemployment and marginalisation have left few opportunities for expression of identity, reproduction is one of the few liberties which remains, and also contributes to the larger goal of increasing the Palestinian people,” it says.
Pedersen says that a sense of duty to expand the population is a factor that can’t be dismissed. “There have been statements from Hamas urging women to have more children to create a larger army,” he says.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/

Toomanywars · 18/11/2024 18:37

Oodiks · 18/11/2024 16:05

Because of UNWRA, they, and their children, and their children's children (on the male line only) will ALWAYS be Palestinian refugees, no matter where they live. Palestinians can never truly emigrate because they are always counted as refugees, unlike other refugees who are allowed to integrate into new countries and build new lives.

So never able to move on or create new lives.

Whatsinanamehey · 18/11/2024 18:42

Toomanywars · 18/11/2024 18:37

So never able to move on or create new lives.

Why should they have to 'move on' when that is their home? It would be most convenient for Israel if they would right? Makes it so much easier to take what's left of the land that they haven't already taken.

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