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Conflict in the Middle East

Has Israel 'made Trauma a weapon of war'?

149 replies

HelenHen · 05/10/2024 19:02

Asks this article in the guardian. It's a very long read, but raises some points that I haven't really seen the media raise before. I'm not sure if my copy paste worked, so might be best to click on the link.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

A slick, high-priced television production. Speeches from top officials. A live audience of thousands. A unified show In Israel’s case, there was a near instant move to graphically re-create the events of 7 October as mediated experiences, sometimes with the goal of countering false claims that deny any atrocities occurred, but often with the explicit goal of reducing sympathy for Palestinians and generating support for Israel’s rapidly expanding wars. Before the one-year mark, there was already an off-Broadway “verbatim play”, called October 7, drawn from witness testimony; several art exhibitions, and at least two 7 October-themed fashion shows, one of which saw models who had survived the attacks or lost loved ones adorn themselves with prosthetic wounds, fake blood and dresses made of shell casings. A model whose fiance was killed in the attack, for instance, “wore a white wedding dress with a ‘bullet hole’ in her heart”, reported the Jewish News. “Israel’s back in fashion,” read a dissonant headline about the show in the Jewish Chronicle.
Then there are the 7 October films, already an emerging subgenre. First came the Israeli military’s Bearing Witness, which compiled the most graphic and horrific moments captured on video that day. Within weeks of the attacks, it was being screened to curated audiences of politicians, business leaders and journalists everywhere from Davos to the Museum of Tolerance in LA. This was followed by a slew of more professional documentaries, including Screams Before Silence, about sexual violence, fronted by the former Meta COO Sheryl Sandberg; #Nova, which uses phone and body-camera video to create a “minute-by-minute” account of the “bone-chilling atrocities”; and the BBC’s Surviving October 7: We Will Dance Again, which does much the same. “America’s most-watched faith network”, TBN, aired a four-part special about the attacks that was seven hours in total.
Dramatic treatments take a little more time, but there are several in the works, including October 7, a feature film from the creators of Fauda, as well as the scripted series One Day in October, developed by Fox, slated to air this month.
Most unusual is the decision by the Israeli director Alon Daniel to make a realistic film entirely out of miniatures. His team spent months painstakingly re-creating a dollhouse of horrors: everything from the barbed-wire fence that Hamas breached, to the burned-out cars and bullet-riddled portable toilets at the Nova music festival. A member of the production told Haaretz: “We printed these little stall models in 3D and painted them, and initially it was fun to see it. But it was equally horrifying. There was such a dissonance here between the cute and the horrific.”
Because ours is a world riven by violence and injustice, there is a huge body of literature about the ethics of memorializing real-world atrocity. How do you evoke horror without exploiting it? How do you avoid reinscribing the idea that some kinds of bodies are destined for violence, and thereby make it more likely? How do you avoid asking survivors to relive their worst traumas over and over again? How do you prevent a traumatic response in the viewer, who may have a history of facing violence themselves? Is there an accompanying process for reparation and healing? Relatedly, how do you avoid evoking dangerous emotions, like hate and revenge, which can only lead to more tragedy and more trauma?
Amy Sodaro, a sociologist and author of Exhibiting Atrocity: Memorial Museums and the Politics of Past Violence, told me: “These are questions that people who are engaged in memorial work are constantly engaging with. It’s deeply political work.”
During the weeks I spent researching the sprawling memory culture that emerged post-7 October – the bloody wedding dresses, the tiny burned-out cars and the looping final voicemails – I searched in vain for evidence that these questions have been wrestled with at all. Nor did I find any reckoning with the reality that many facts are still unknown, which is why so many victim families are demanding an independent investigation.
With very few exceptions, the primary goal of these diverse works seems to be the transference of trauma to the audience: re-creating terrifying events with such vividness and intimacy that a viewer or visitor experiences a kind of identity merger, as if they themselves have been violated.
A New Yorker who watched the “verbatim play” October 7 reported: “I felt I was actually living the experience … I felt there and [the play was] able to transfer to me the feeling.” The producers were so pleased by the reaction they shared it on social media. A screening of the Israeli military’s 7 October compilation “left the audience in shambles. People walked out of the room in silence, either crying or simply shellshocked,” the Anti-Defamation League’s Jonathan Greenblatt told the New York Times – and that, too, was a compliment.
All efforts at commemoration aim to touch the hearts of people who were not there. But there is a difference between inspiring an emotional connection and deliberately putting people into a shellshocked, traumatized state. Achieving the latter result is why so much 7 October memorialization boasts that it is “immersive” – offering viewers and participants the chance to crawl inside the pain of others, based on a guiding assumption that the more people there are who experience the trauma of 7 October as if it was their own, the better off the world will be. Or rather, the better off Israel will be.
Nowhere is the trauma transference goal more explicit than in Israel’s booming “dark tourism” sector. For months, synagogues and Jewish federations from around the world have been sponsoring trips that take their supporters on “solidarity missions” to southern Israel. Their tour buses line the edges of the site of the Nova festival, which is now filled with memorials to the hundreds of people who were killed and kidnapped there. And, much to the consternation of some locals, they also step over the rubble to crowd into the still ravaged kibbutzim.
Last February, the reporter Maya Rosen shadowed several of these tours for an extensive Jewish Currents article on the eerie phenomenon. She saw decimated homes preserved like mausoleums, including one of a 23-year-old couple killed in the attack. The tours wander through its rooms where “screenshots of [Sivan] Elkabetz’s last, frantic WhatsApp conversations with her parents had been printed out and tacked to the walls, alongside letters that her mother had written to her after her death.”
This goes beyond a drive to “touch ‘the real’”, a term used by the Queen’s University Belfast scholar Debbie Lisle to describe the crush of tourists who flocked to Ground Zero after the September 11 attacks. Because of the extraordinary volume of intensely personal communications now preserved through voice and text messages (and many in these communities texted and called continuously for many hours, waiting for help that never arrived), combined with access to physical locations where blood and signs of struggle have been left untouched, the participants on these missions almost feel like they have themselves been through the interminable attack.
“An American rabbi who led a trip for her community told me about hearing story after story of people who were killed,” Rosen writes. They learned everything, “‘step by step, where it happened, how it happened, how many hours people were locked in their safe rooms, when people were shot through their window or taken out of their house’. These images gave her nightmares for the next five nights, she said.”
There are other such embodied experiences on offer, including in Tel Aviv’s “Hostages Square”, where tourists a dark, 30-meter-long concrete “immersive mock Hamas tunnel”. To simulate the experience of a hostage, the structure was equipped with the sound of ambient explosions from fighting overhead.
It is hard to believe, given the volume already available, but far more 7 October memorializing is still to come. Despite a worsening economic crisis, last month, the Israeli cabinet approved a proposal from Netanyahu to spend $86m on future memorialization projects related to 7 October and the multi-front military campaigns that have raged since. The money will be spent on the preservation of “heritage infrastructure” (AKA damaged buildings); the creation of a new commemorative site, the establishment of an annual national holiday, and much else.
In the meantime, for those not able to make the trip to Israel, there are VR experiences available – including the VR “Gaza Envelope 360 tour”, a 35-minute video, offered in English and Hebrew, that guides viewers around Israeli communities that came under attack on 7 October. In a portion of the tour posted online, the brother of one of the victims leads the camera around the house where the attack occurred and points to blood still on the floor. This, too, is a 7 October subgenre: one “immersive storytelling platform” invites visitors on a selection of 3D tours of homes. As you navigate from one debris-strewn room to another, audio plays terrified messages sent to relatives from safe rooms.
There are also more tactile traumatic experiences travelling the world. Most prominent (and controversial) among them is the Nova Exhibition. The vast, dimly lit installation is designed to re-create the music festival down to the sand, camping tents and the burned cars – and to transmit the bodily feeling of having that trippy experience suddenly interrupted by horrific violence. The show, which is still touring, and includes real objects collected at the site, attracted more than 100,000 visitors in New York alone, including several politicians.
This, once again, is a departure from the way recent traumatic events – from mass shootings to climate disasters – are generally memorialized by artists. Usually, the work is far more elliptical, mindful of re-traumatizing families, terrifying visitors and disrespecting the dead. For instance, memorialists do not tend to bring spectators en masse into darkened high school hallways strewn with fake blood and the sounds of weapon fire and children’s desperate cries in order to motivate action about gun violence.
One review, for the art site Filthy Dreams, compared the Nova exhibition to a bizarre cross between a campfire singalong and one of those evangelical Hell Houses, designed to scare teens about the dangers of premarital sex. “Do we really need to stand on victims’ yoga mats to feel the horrors of people at a music festival being butchered?” asked the art critic Emily Colucci. “Is straddling an upturned lawn chair while gawking at blurred-out bodies truly the best way to remember the dead? And why is it so goddamn dark in here?! I understood October 7th was bad without doing this.”
There is a difference between understanding an event, which preserves the mind’s analytic capacity as well as one’s sense of self, and feeling like you are personally living through it. The latter produces not understanding but what Sodaro has called a “prosthetic trauma”, which, she writes, is highly conducive to “a simplistic dualism between good and evil that has important political implications”.
Consumers of these experiences are encouraged to feel a distilled bond with the victims, who are the essence of good, and a distilled hatred for their aggressors, who are the essence of evil. The traumatized state is pure feeling, pure reaction. Vision is narrowed, tunneled.
In this state, we do not ask what isn’t included in the frame of the immersive experience. And in the case of the deluge of immersive art being produced to commemorate 7 October, what is not included is Palestine, specifically Gaza. Not the decades of strangled conditions of life on the other side of the wall that led up to the attacks – and not the tens of thousands of Palestinian people, including wrenching numbers of infants and children, whom Israel has killed and maimed since 7 October.
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”

How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war

A year later, memorials to the 7 October attacks use art, virtual reality and dark tourism to stir support for limitless violence. But there is a different way to remember

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

OP posts:
israelilefty · 10/10/2024 09:22

@Scirocco thank you for writing more eloquently what I was trying to write last night in response to @Polka83's question.

@Polka83, in my experience both of personal social media feeds and of Twitter etc, the vast majority of individuals posting pictures of grave atrocities on either side are doing so not to encourage complex understand or dialogue but rather to invoke knee-jerk responses that bolster the support for their own side/opinion.

About the effect of images of destruction in Gaza on Israeli civilians: first of all, Israels see fewer of these pictures than appear in the world press both because of the slant of the reporting (with the exception of left leaning paper Haaretz), and also because for Israelis they are only a part of the images and stories coming from Gaza. Those seeing the images will also have read and almost certainly heard from relatives/acquaintances about the vast Hamas military infrastructure discovered inside and under civilian homes and about the very difficult conditions of urban warfare experienced by soldiers, and also about widespread support for Hamas among Gazan civilians, which will mean that they read the images in a different way than someone overseas who has no connection to the situation and for whom the existence of Hamas infrastructure doesn't make any difference.

But even more fundamentally, as I have written elsewhere, it's really beyond human capacity to expect someone experiencing an active conflict to feel a gut sympathy for people on the other side. The vast majority of Israelis, while they probably have at least some degree of sympathy for Gazan civilians, are just not in that place of gut reaction right now. Everyone in the country is still experiencing a huge level of uncertainty, unsafely and anxiety and is absolutely exhausted. Every single person has been through way more this year than any of could have imagined. Some people turn that energy to unbelievable dialogue and peace efforts, like Maoz Inon, both of whose parents were killed on Oct 7. Some channel it into protesting day and night for the return of the hostages. And some people - like in any country - simply can't hear anything except that they want to flatten the enemy.

Not everything is gut reaction though. If you want to understand how Israelis understand the war right now, this podcast interview with right-leaning analyst Shimrit Meir is a good place to start (and as anyone who follows my posts will know, I can't recommend the Unholy podcast enough for anyone who wants to understand Israeli society).

https://open.spotify.com/episode/78ZxAPfDStD3gPCDZ4EgN0?si=3da26e0d7a7d4774

Spotify

https://open.spotify.com/episode/78ZxAPfDStD3gPCDZ4EgN0?si=3da26e0d7a7d4774

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 09:46

wanderingstar23 · 10/10/2024 08:12

@israelilefty I appreciate the work you are doing especially as there are extremely anti-peace forces here who claim to be acting in the name of / interests of Israel / Israelis. etc. However I don't really understand how (if I have understood correctly) you can suggest that the average pro-Palestine voice here and people like Naomi Klein are akin to polarising forces like Hamas and Netanyahu. It's just not like that. It's not in any way the same order. There are Jews in what would be described as the pro-Palestine movement here, increasing in numbers, and difficult and challenging conversations are being had. You may not like what Naomi Klein says, Liberal Zionists might not like how she says it, but she's been at it for years and is still at it, it's her way and she has a place in this movement, which is international, thank God. Because the Israeli Left wasn't strong enough alone to protect the increasingly tens of thousands of Gazans from people who would create a siege situation. And if there was a stronger Israeli Left we might not have had such a strong Hamas either (because we also know that Netanyahu had a laissez-faire policy with them because he thought it would be better not to have a united Palestine, obviously underestimating the blowback). Neither would the Israeli government be able to do what it is doing without international support. The international element to all of this is totally crucial. And in any movement there will be different kinds of people with different strategies and approaches. The fundamental issue as you point out is about being able to literally sit down and have good, humanising contact amongst Palestinians and Jews. I see this regularly within the pro-Palestine movement here, contrary to popular commentary. I am glad you are doing that in the way that works for you and the people around you.

Edited

I don't think I said "akin" - but I do think that pro-Palestine and pro-Israel voices abroad often serve the interests of such politicial forces, because when they see international support for their own position (eg ceasefire now without concessions), they are not motivated to make those concessions.

The issue at stake is not just humanising contact between Palestinians and Jews - though this is important and can make a gradual change in society. That takes place - thankfully - every day inside Israel - and I'm lucky that such contact is a fundamental part of my working life. But it is not enough.

The issue is also not ending the current war - though this is necessary and long overdue. But it is just part of the overall picture.

The issue at stake is creating the conditions for lasting stability in the region, which will require willingness, compromise and imagination from political actors at the local, regional and global level. The difficulty is not identifying and protesting about the problems - it is finding and implementing the solutions in a way that doesn't lead us back to square 1, and again, practicalities and compromises.

I think that the global pro-Palestine movement is good at the former but its often uncompromising and maximalist rhetoric and downplaying of the regional and global context of the conflict means that I don't hear messages looking forward beyond the ceasefire. I absolutely get why people just want to stop the fighting and the killing right now. But in practical terms a ceasefire also means Sinwar agreeing to conditions which will transition power away from Hamas which will allow Arab countries to fund rebuilding (because they won't if Hamas remains in power). Etc.

Frontofgarden · 10/10/2024 09:53

I'm sorr, but I just can't get past how people can support the immense cruelty of the IDF. I just saw images of a hospital in Gaza that have been ordered to evacuate by the IDF including the ICU! Small babies hooked on multiple wires fighting for life after being injured by Israeli bombs, now given another death sentence.
How can anyone who has even the slightest shred of humanity support this. I always thought good of Israel and higher of them but not anymore sadly.

Frontofgarden · 10/10/2024 09:57

I know lots of people who were also very pro-israel who now also think the same. They no longer support Israel anymore after they have killed so many thousands of innocent children to get revenge!

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:19

I know lots of people who were also very pro-israel who now also think the same. They no longer support Israel anymore after they have killed so many thousands of innocent children to get revenge!

I'm the opposite. I was hugely critical of Israel until last year and now I completely support that they need to get rid of Hamas.
I also think that characterising them as deliberately killing children for revenge is blood libel.

Scirocco · 10/10/2024 10:22

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:19

I know lots of people who were also very pro-israel who now also think the same. They no longer support Israel anymore after they have killed so many thousands of innocent children to get revenge!

I'm the opposite. I was hugely critical of Israel until last year and now I completely support that they need to get rid of Hamas.
I also think that characterising them as deliberately killing children for revenge is blood libel.

How should people then discuss the deliberate targeting of children?

Dulra · 10/10/2024 10:28

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 09:46

I don't think I said "akin" - but I do think that pro-Palestine and pro-Israel voices abroad often serve the interests of such politicial forces, because when they see international support for their own position (eg ceasefire now without concessions), they are not motivated to make those concessions.

The issue at stake is not just humanising contact between Palestinians and Jews - though this is important and can make a gradual change in society. That takes place - thankfully - every day inside Israel - and I'm lucky that such contact is a fundamental part of my working life. But it is not enough.

The issue is also not ending the current war - though this is necessary and long overdue. But it is just part of the overall picture.

The issue at stake is creating the conditions for lasting stability in the region, which will require willingness, compromise and imagination from political actors at the local, regional and global level. The difficulty is not identifying and protesting about the problems - it is finding and implementing the solutions in a way that doesn't lead us back to square 1, and again, practicalities and compromises.

I think that the global pro-Palestine movement is good at the former but its often uncompromising and maximalist rhetoric and downplaying of the regional and global context of the conflict means that I don't hear messages looking forward beyond the ceasefire. I absolutely get why people just want to stop the fighting and the killing right now. But in practical terms a ceasefire also means Sinwar agreeing to conditions which will transition power away from Hamas which will allow Arab countries to fund rebuilding (because they won't if Hamas remains in power). Etc.

Thank you for your informed posts. I would absolutely agree that there isn't enough conversations about what comes next after a ceasefire and hostage release, how can you build trust that will hopefully lead to a longer more enduring peace and stability in the region. I don't think anyone is under any illusions that things cannot go back to how they were pre Oct 7th. I feel this conversation is missing from the leaders involved. You will always get simple soundbites such as "ceasefire now" but would expect the conditions to move beyond this would come from the top but sadly that is sorely missing

The issue at stake is creating the conditions for lasting stability in the region, which will require willingness, compromise and imagination from political actors at the local, regional and global level.
I cannot speak for local but I don't see them there at the regional or global level. Although not the same and not as complicated, the good Friday agreement would not have happened if it wasn't for some of the actors involved at the time such as John Hume, Mo Mowlan and David Trimble, it felt like a now or never situation. They were willing to compromise and shift their positions to find a solution which was often not popular with their parties and try and sell it to massive opposition amongst their colleagues.
It is tough and painful but can work if the right people are willing to try and the right people are their to mediate and facilitate the process and those mediators have trust from both sides. I personally don't think either side is at this stage yet, I can't see either side agreeing to concessions to bring about peace.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:30

How should people then discuss the deliberate targeting of children?

You're starting from the assumption that the targeting is deliberate rather than collateral.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/blood-libel

Scirocco · 10/10/2024 10:36

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:30

How should people then discuss the deliberate targeting of children?

You're starting from the assumption that the targeting is deliberate rather than collateral.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/blood-libel

Edited

There's significant medical evidence that children are being targeted. For example, it's difficult to see how large numbers of small children could accidentally end up with remarkably similar patterns of bullet wounds, including "double-tap" approaches which are intended to ensure the death or incapacitation of the target.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:44

There's such a slew of conflicting information, misinformation and propaganda coming out from Gaza that people (on both "sides") can find enough to believe to support and entrench their existing views.
I seldom see concrete enough evidence, from an unbiased enough source, to believe or disbelieve much any more.

What I have seen on here, and on X, is the consistent belief in any report that makes Israel look as bad as possible, and the equally consistent interpretation of the worst possible motivations, at all times, from the Israelis.

I find it the opposite of persuasive, it makes me assume that much of what I'm seeing is lies and exaggeration, possibly unfairly.

Scirocco · 10/10/2024 10:53

Examples of concerns regarding deliberate targeting of children:

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/07/postapocalyptic-uk-volunteer-surgeons-reflect-on-time-in-gaza

From a post by @Kindatired elsewhere (I hope they're ok with me sharing here as I don't have the survey link to hand right now):
"Today there’s an account of a survey of returned Healthcare in the New York Times. Sixty five of them surveyed in US after returning from Gaza.
44 doctors, nurses and paramedics saw multiple cases of preteen children who had been shot in the head or chest in Gaza.
63 doctors, nurses and paramedics observed severe malnutrition in patients, Palestinian medical workers and the general population.
52 doctors, nurses and paramedics observed nearly universal psychiatric distress in young children and saw some who were suicidal or said they wished they had
25 doctors, nurses and paramedics saw babies who had been born healthy return to hospitals and die from dehydration, starvation or infections caused by their malnourished mothers’ inability to breastfeed and a lack of infant formula and clean water."

There are also the multiple eye-witness accounts and people who have served who confirm that they have received kill orders regarding targeting non-combatant children.

‘Postapocalyptic’: UK volunteer surgeons reflect on time in Gaza

Health workers fear for safety and say level of casualties and conditions are ‘unlike anything’ they have seen before

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/07/postapocalyptic-uk-volunteer-surgeons-reflect-on-time-in-gaza

Dulra · 10/10/2024 10:54

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:44

There's such a slew of conflicting information, misinformation and propaganda coming out from Gaza that people (on both "sides") can find enough to believe to support and entrench their existing views.
I seldom see concrete enough evidence, from an unbiased enough source, to believe or disbelieve much any more.

What I have seen on here, and on X, is the consistent belief in any report that makes Israel look as bad as possible, and the equally consistent interpretation of the worst possible motivations, at all times, from the Israelis.

I find it the opposite of persuasive, it makes me assume that much of what I'm seeing is lies and exaggeration, possibly unfairly.

I seldom see concrete enough evidence, from an unbiased enough source, to believe or disbelieve much any more.
Unfortunately the only source we have are IDF or Hamas. No independent observers are allowed in which is extremely frustrating for everyone. I personally feel the lack of observers is quite scary and I worry what will be found when they get access. At the moment the only independent picture we can get is through medical professionals on the ground and their testimonies when they leave. I for one have no idea why they would lie about what they witness so trust their accounts.

Frontofgarden · 10/10/2024 10:56

How can you be so heartless! The IDF have laid siege on the north of Gaza for days now where a quarter million residents are stuck. They haven't allowed food or water or necessities in and bombed the last remaining bakery last night! How cruel 😢 don't you have any feeling for the children there even if you don't for the adults. How can anyone condone this??

LetThereBeLove · 10/10/2024 11:08

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 10/10/2024 10:19

I know lots of people who were also very pro-israel who now also think the same. They no longer support Israel anymore after they have killed so many thousands of innocent children to get revenge!

I'm the opposite. I was hugely critical of Israel until last year and now I completely support that they need to get rid of Hamas.
I also think that characterising them as deliberately killing children for revenge is blood libel.

It is indeed blood libel.

LetThereBeLove · 10/10/2024 11:09

Dulra · 10/10/2024 10:28

Thank you for your informed posts. I would absolutely agree that there isn't enough conversations about what comes next after a ceasefire and hostage release, how can you build trust that will hopefully lead to a longer more enduring peace and stability in the region. I don't think anyone is under any illusions that things cannot go back to how they were pre Oct 7th. I feel this conversation is missing from the leaders involved. You will always get simple soundbites such as "ceasefire now" but would expect the conditions to move beyond this would come from the top but sadly that is sorely missing

The issue at stake is creating the conditions for lasting stability in the region, which will require willingness, compromise and imagination from political actors at the local, regional and global level.
I cannot speak for local but I don't see them there at the regional or global level. Although not the same and not as complicated, the good Friday agreement would not have happened if it wasn't for some of the actors involved at the time such as John Hume, Mo Mowlan and David Trimble, it felt like a now or never situation. They were willing to compromise and shift their positions to find a solution which was often not popular with their parties and try and sell it to massive opposition amongst their colleagues.
It is tough and painful but can work if the right people are willing to try and the right people are their to mediate and facilitate the process and those mediators have trust from both sides. I personally don't think either side is at this stage yet, I can't see either side agreeing to concessions to bring about peace.

Hamas do not have leaders of that calibre and Iran calls the shots.

Scirocco · 10/10/2024 11:14

LetThereBeLove · 10/10/2024 11:08

It is indeed blood libel.

How is it blood libel to say that multiple healthcare professionals have stated on the record that a lot of non-combatant children have been shot in the head and otherwise sustained injuries consistent with having been precisely targeted?

AmeliaEarache · 10/10/2024 11:17

but at the end of the day let's just focus for one moment on the people it's happening to, who you've barely mentioned in any of your posts.

@wanderingstar23 - The thread is about responses to 7/10 atrocities; the people that happened to are Israeli.

Dulra · 10/10/2024 11:17

LetThereBeLove · 10/10/2024 11:09

Hamas do not have leaders of that calibre and Iran calls the shots.

So who do Israel negotiate with? Iran?

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 11:38

Dulra · 10/10/2024 11:17

So who do Israel negotiate with? Iran?

That's exactly what is happening right now, except the negotiations are indirect (Iran does not recognise the state of Israel therefore the talks are conducted via an intermediary eg France/USA).

I highly recommend the podcast with Shimrit Meir I linked earlier on the topic of how this works and the various plausible directions in the conflict from this point, after which there has been a very considerable shift in the regional power equilibrium with the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah and the Iranian ballistic missile attack.

GentleScroller · 10/10/2024 11:50

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 09:22

@Scirocco thank you for writing more eloquently what I was trying to write last night in response to @Polka83's question.

@Polka83, in my experience both of personal social media feeds and of Twitter etc, the vast majority of individuals posting pictures of grave atrocities on either side are doing so not to encourage complex understand or dialogue but rather to invoke knee-jerk responses that bolster the support for their own side/opinion.

About the effect of images of destruction in Gaza on Israeli civilians: first of all, Israels see fewer of these pictures than appear in the world press both because of the slant of the reporting (with the exception of left leaning paper Haaretz), and also because for Israelis they are only a part of the images and stories coming from Gaza. Those seeing the images will also have read and almost certainly heard from relatives/acquaintances about the vast Hamas military infrastructure discovered inside and under civilian homes and about the very difficult conditions of urban warfare experienced by soldiers, and also about widespread support for Hamas among Gazan civilians, which will mean that they read the images in a different way than someone overseas who has no connection to the situation and for whom the existence of Hamas infrastructure doesn't make any difference.

But even more fundamentally, as I have written elsewhere, it's really beyond human capacity to expect someone experiencing an active conflict to feel a gut sympathy for people on the other side. The vast majority of Israelis, while they probably have at least some degree of sympathy for Gazan civilians, are just not in that place of gut reaction right now. Everyone in the country is still experiencing a huge level of uncertainty, unsafely and anxiety and is absolutely exhausted. Every single person has been through way more this year than any of could have imagined. Some people turn that energy to unbelievable dialogue and peace efforts, like Maoz Inon, both of whose parents were killed on Oct 7. Some channel it into protesting day and night for the return of the hostages. And some people - like in any country - simply can't hear anything except that they want to flatten the enemy.

Not everything is gut reaction though. If you want to understand how Israelis understand the war right now, this podcast interview with right-leaning analyst Shimrit Meir is a good place to start (and as anyone who follows my posts will know, I can't recommend the Unholy podcast enough for anyone who wants to understand Israeli society).

https://open.spotify.com/episode/78ZxAPfDStD3gPCDZ4EgN0?si=3da26e0d7a7d4774

@israelilefty Thank you for taking the time and giving us your insights. I appreciate it and hope others consider what you have said and listen to the podcast.

Dulra · 10/10/2024 11:51

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 11:38

That's exactly what is happening right now, except the negotiations are indirect (Iran does not recognise the state of Israel therefore the talks are conducted via an intermediary eg France/USA).

I highly recommend the podcast with Shimrit Meir I linked earlier on the topic of how this works and the various plausible directions in the conflict from this point, after which there has been a very considerable shift in the regional power equilibrium with the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah and the Iranian ballistic missile attack.

I have no doubt there is s a lot going on behind the scenes which the public will not be made aware of at the moment. I will give the podcast a go

ScrollingLeaves · 10/10/2024 12:24

israelilefty · 10/10/2024 09:22

@Scirocco thank you for writing more eloquently what I was trying to write last night in response to @Polka83's question.

@Polka83, in my experience both of personal social media feeds and of Twitter etc, the vast majority of individuals posting pictures of grave atrocities on either side are doing so not to encourage complex understand or dialogue but rather to invoke knee-jerk responses that bolster the support for their own side/opinion.

About the effect of images of destruction in Gaza on Israeli civilians: first of all, Israels see fewer of these pictures than appear in the world press both because of the slant of the reporting (with the exception of left leaning paper Haaretz), and also because for Israelis they are only a part of the images and stories coming from Gaza. Those seeing the images will also have read and almost certainly heard from relatives/acquaintances about the vast Hamas military infrastructure discovered inside and under civilian homes and about the very difficult conditions of urban warfare experienced by soldiers, and also about widespread support for Hamas among Gazan civilians, which will mean that they read the images in a different way than someone overseas who has no connection to the situation and for whom the existence of Hamas infrastructure doesn't make any difference.

But even more fundamentally, as I have written elsewhere, it's really beyond human capacity to expect someone experiencing an active conflict to feel a gut sympathy for people on the other side. The vast majority of Israelis, while they probably have at least some degree of sympathy for Gazan civilians, are just not in that place of gut reaction right now. Everyone in the country is still experiencing a huge level of uncertainty, unsafely and anxiety and is absolutely exhausted. Every single person has been through way more this year than any of could have imagined. Some people turn that energy to unbelievable dialogue and peace efforts, like Maoz Inon, both of whose parents were killed on Oct 7. Some channel it into protesting day and night for the return of the hostages. And some people - like in any country - simply can't hear anything except that they want to flatten the enemy.

Not everything is gut reaction though. If you want to understand how Israelis understand the war right now, this podcast interview with right-leaning analyst Shimrit Meir is a good place to start (and as anyone who follows my posts will know, I can't recommend the Unholy podcast enough for anyone who wants to understand Israeli society).

https://open.spotify.com/episode/78ZxAPfDStD3gPCDZ4EgN0?si=3da26e0d7a7d4774

Thank you for explaining so much about how Israelis respond to information coming from Gaza.

But even more fundamentally, as I have written elsewhere, it's really beyond human capacity to expect someone experiencing an active conflict to feel a gut sympathy for people on the other side.

In spite of the deep concern I feel for Palestinians, I can completely understand this on the part of the ordinary people and feel I would be the same.

But imo passive lack of sympathy and active love of revenge, including committing illegal acts, are different things and the latter should not be carried out or encouraged by the state. It is heartening that some Israeli newspapers do report on evidence of this. I would be grateful to hear alternative voices to Netanyahu’s if I were in Israel.

Thank you very much for the recommendation of the podcast.

Limesodaagain · 10/10/2024 18:35

HelenHen · 08/10/2024 17:22

In fairness, I've taken a step back here because I've really enjoyed reading your posts. I'm sorry you've had to process all that.

The article certainly doesn't hold back, from the headline through to the end. Some of the words might hit hard, but I found it to be an interesting perspective and probably quite brave of her to write.

Yes everyone is allowed to grieve... silently and/or publicly...

A massive example is how I had been warned heavily to keep quiet yesterday (and all week) out of respect. I chose to stay silent myself anyway out of respect. However, while I remained silent, the killing continued.

This thread has ended up - one way and another- being really informative and helpful.
Posters showing respect for moderate alternative views etc .
So thanks for the thread .

HelenHen · 10/10/2024 20:42

Limesodaagain · 10/10/2024 18:35

This thread has ended up - one way and another- being really informative and helpful.
Posters showing respect for moderate alternative views etc .
So thanks for the thread .

First time for everything! 😊 nah, I agree. I've enjoyed following the discussion.

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