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Conflict in the Middle East

Has Israel 'made Trauma a weapon of war'?

149 replies

HelenHen · 05/10/2024 19:02

Asks this article in the guardian. It's a very long read, but raises some points that I haven't really seen the media raise before. I'm not sure if my copy paste worked, so might be best to click on the link.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

A slick, high-priced television production. Speeches from top officials. A live audience of thousands. A unified show In Israel’s case, there was a near instant move to graphically re-create the events of 7 October as mediated experiences, sometimes with the goal of countering false claims that deny any atrocities occurred, but often with the explicit goal of reducing sympathy for Palestinians and generating support for Israel’s rapidly expanding wars. Before the one-year mark, there was already an off-Broadway “verbatim play”, called October 7, drawn from witness testimony; several art exhibitions, and at least two 7 October-themed fashion shows, one of which saw models who had survived the attacks or lost loved ones adorn themselves with prosthetic wounds, fake blood and dresses made of shell casings. A model whose fiance was killed in the attack, for instance, “wore a white wedding dress with a ‘bullet hole’ in her heart”, reported the Jewish News. “Israel’s back in fashion,” read a dissonant headline about the show in the Jewish Chronicle.
Then there are the 7 October films, already an emerging subgenre. First came the Israeli military’s Bearing Witness, which compiled the most graphic and horrific moments captured on video that day. Within weeks of the attacks, it was being screened to curated audiences of politicians, business leaders and journalists everywhere from Davos to the Museum of Tolerance in LA. This was followed by a slew of more professional documentaries, including Screams Before Silence, about sexual violence, fronted by the former Meta COO Sheryl Sandberg; #Nova, which uses phone and body-camera video to create a “minute-by-minute” account of the “bone-chilling atrocities”; and the BBC’s Surviving October 7: We Will Dance Again, which does much the same. “America’s most-watched faith network”, TBN, aired a four-part special about the attacks that was seven hours in total.
Dramatic treatments take a little more time, but there are several in the works, including October 7, a feature film from the creators of Fauda, as well as the scripted series One Day in October, developed by Fox, slated to air this month.
Most unusual is the decision by the Israeli director Alon Daniel to make a realistic film entirely out of miniatures. His team spent months painstakingly re-creating a dollhouse of horrors: everything from the barbed-wire fence that Hamas breached, to the burned-out cars and bullet-riddled portable toilets at the Nova music festival. A member of the production told Haaretz: “We printed these little stall models in 3D and painted them, and initially it was fun to see it. But it was equally horrifying. There was such a dissonance here between the cute and the horrific.”
Because ours is a world riven by violence and injustice, there is a huge body of literature about the ethics of memorializing real-world atrocity. How do you evoke horror without exploiting it? How do you avoid reinscribing the idea that some kinds of bodies are destined for violence, and thereby make it more likely? How do you avoid asking survivors to relive their worst traumas over and over again? How do you prevent a traumatic response in the viewer, who may have a history of facing violence themselves? Is there an accompanying process for reparation and healing? Relatedly, how do you avoid evoking dangerous emotions, like hate and revenge, which can only lead to more tragedy and more trauma?
Amy Sodaro, a sociologist and author of Exhibiting Atrocity: Memorial Museums and the Politics of Past Violence, told me: “These are questions that people who are engaged in memorial work are constantly engaging with. It’s deeply political work.”
During the weeks I spent researching the sprawling memory culture that emerged post-7 October – the bloody wedding dresses, the tiny burned-out cars and the looping final voicemails – I searched in vain for evidence that these questions have been wrestled with at all. Nor did I find any reckoning with the reality that many facts are still unknown, which is why so many victim families are demanding an independent investigation.
With very few exceptions, the primary goal of these diverse works seems to be the transference of trauma to the audience: re-creating terrifying events with such vividness and intimacy that a viewer or visitor experiences a kind of identity merger, as if they themselves have been violated.
A New Yorker who watched the “verbatim play” October 7 reported: “I felt I was actually living the experience … I felt there and [the play was] able to transfer to me the feeling.” The producers were so pleased by the reaction they shared it on social media. A screening of the Israeli military’s 7 October compilation “left the audience in shambles. People walked out of the room in silence, either crying or simply shellshocked,” the Anti-Defamation League’s Jonathan Greenblatt told the New York Times – and that, too, was a compliment.
All efforts at commemoration aim to touch the hearts of people who were not there. But there is a difference between inspiring an emotional connection and deliberately putting people into a shellshocked, traumatized state. Achieving the latter result is why so much 7 October memorialization boasts that it is “immersive” – offering viewers and participants the chance to crawl inside the pain of others, based on a guiding assumption that the more people there are who experience the trauma of 7 October as if it was their own, the better off the world will be. Or rather, the better off Israel will be.
Nowhere is the trauma transference goal more explicit than in Israel’s booming “dark tourism” sector. For months, synagogues and Jewish federations from around the world have been sponsoring trips that take their supporters on “solidarity missions” to southern Israel. Their tour buses line the edges of the site of the Nova festival, which is now filled with memorials to the hundreds of people who were killed and kidnapped there. And, much to the consternation of some locals, they also step over the rubble to crowd into the still ravaged kibbutzim.
Last February, the reporter Maya Rosen shadowed several of these tours for an extensive Jewish Currents article on the eerie phenomenon. She saw decimated homes preserved like mausoleums, including one of a 23-year-old couple killed in the attack. The tours wander through its rooms where “screenshots of [Sivan] Elkabetz’s last, frantic WhatsApp conversations with her parents had been printed out and tacked to the walls, alongside letters that her mother had written to her after her death.”
This goes beyond a drive to “touch ‘the real’”, a term used by the Queen’s University Belfast scholar Debbie Lisle to describe the crush of tourists who flocked to Ground Zero after the September 11 attacks. Because of the extraordinary volume of intensely personal communications now preserved through voice and text messages (and many in these communities texted and called continuously for many hours, waiting for help that never arrived), combined with access to physical locations where blood and signs of struggle have been left untouched, the participants on these missions almost feel like they have themselves been through the interminable attack.
“An American rabbi who led a trip for her community told me about hearing story after story of people who were killed,” Rosen writes. They learned everything, “‘step by step, where it happened, how it happened, how many hours people were locked in their safe rooms, when people were shot through their window or taken out of their house’. These images gave her nightmares for the next five nights, she said.”
There are other such embodied experiences on offer, including in Tel Aviv’s “Hostages Square”, where tourists a dark, 30-meter-long concrete “immersive mock Hamas tunnel”. To simulate the experience of a hostage, the structure was equipped with the sound of ambient explosions from fighting overhead.
It is hard to believe, given the volume already available, but far more 7 October memorializing is still to come. Despite a worsening economic crisis, last month, the Israeli cabinet approved a proposal from Netanyahu to spend $86m on future memorialization projects related to 7 October and the multi-front military campaigns that have raged since. The money will be spent on the preservation of “heritage infrastructure” (AKA damaged buildings); the creation of a new commemorative site, the establishment of an annual national holiday, and much else.
In the meantime, for those not able to make the trip to Israel, there are VR experiences available – including the VR “Gaza Envelope 360 tour”, a 35-minute video, offered in English and Hebrew, that guides viewers around Israeli communities that came under attack on 7 October. In a portion of the tour posted online, the brother of one of the victims leads the camera around the house where the attack occurred and points to blood still on the floor. This, too, is a 7 October subgenre: one “immersive storytelling platform” invites visitors on a selection of 3D tours of homes. As you navigate from one debris-strewn room to another, audio plays terrified messages sent to relatives from safe rooms.
There are also more tactile traumatic experiences travelling the world. Most prominent (and controversial) among them is the Nova Exhibition. The vast, dimly lit installation is designed to re-create the music festival down to the sand, camping tents and the burned cars – and to transmit the bodily feeling of having that trippy experience suddenly interrupted by horrific violence. The show, which is still touring, and includes real objects collected at the site, attracted more than 100,000 visitors in New York alone, including several politicians.
This, once again, is a departure from the way recent traumatic events – from mass shootings to climate disasters – are generally memorialized by artists. Usually, the work is far more elliptical, mindful of re-traumatizing families, terrifying visitors and disrespecting the dead. For instance, memorialists do not tend to bring spectators en masse into darkened high school hallways strewn with fake blood and the sounds of weapon fire and children’s desperate cries in order to motivate action about gun violence.
One review, for the art site Filthy Dreams, compared the Nova exhibition to a bizarre cross between a campfire singalong and one of those evangelical Hell Houses, designed to scare teens about the dangers of premarital sex. “Do we really need to stand on victims’ yoga mats to feel the horrors of people at a music festival being butchered?” asked the art critic Emily Colucci. “Is straddling an upturned lawn chair while gawking at blurred-out bodies truly the best way to remember the dead? And why is it so goddamn dark in here?! I understood October 7th was bad without doing this.”
There is a difference between understanding an event, which preserves the mind’s analytic capacity as well as one’s sense of self, and feeling like you are personally living through it. The latter produces not understanding but what Sodaro has called a “prosthetic trauma”, which, she writes, is highly conducive to “a simplistic dualism between good and evil that has important political implications”.
Consumers of these experiences are encouraged to feel a distilled bond with the victims, who are the essence of good, and a distilled hatred for their aggressors, who are the essence of evil. The traumatized state is pure feeling, pure reaction. Vision is narrowed, tunneled.
In this state, we do not ask what isn’t included in the frame of the immersive experience. And in the case of the deluge of immersive art being produced to commemorate 7 October, what is not included is Palestine, specifically Gaza. Not the decades of strangled conditions of life on the other side of the wall that led up to the attacks – and not the tens of thousands of Palestinian people, including wrenching numbers of infants and children, whom Israel has killed and maimed since 7 October.
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”

How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war

A year later, memorials to the 7 October attacks use art, virtual reality and dark tourism to stir support for limitless violence. But there is a different way to remember

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

OP posts:
israelilefty · 06/10/2024 20:20

Of course there isn't a robust mainstream public discourse on remembering Palestinians in Israel, just like the US didn't have a mainstream public discourse on remembering Afghans after 9/11, and so on. When there is an ongoing conflict, memorials are inevitably focused on the "us" side. I must correct her and note that this is not "tightly bound by ethnicity" - this is a national tragedy not an ethnic one. 7/10 and the war hasn't affected only Jewish Israelis, and Israelis showed equal solidarity when Farhan Kadi, a Muslim hostage was released, and were collectively devastated when Druze kids in Majdal Shams were killed. In synagogue we read out the names of the Thai and Muslim hostages alongside the Jewish names, and their faces appear on hostage posters etc.

Regarding memorials, Israelis aren't one uniform collective. For the vast majority of Israelis, the first anniversary of 7/10 is not about the government feeding people some narrative - it's about personally coming to terms with the year that has happened and the fact that there are incomprehensibly still 101 hostages in Gaza. I will attend (remotely) the "alternative" national commemoration tomorrow out of respect for the bereaved and hostage families, and in order to hear some of the difficult testimonies I have personally been avoiding all year. I will not attend watch the official government ceremony because they chose to hold a ceremony that did not have the backing of most of the bereaved and hostage families. I will read and hear reflections posted by friends.

But there have also been loud public voices in Israel expressing concern for Palestinian civilians in Gaza (far more prominent than Zochrot is Standing Together, for example), many members of kibbutzim that were directly affected - and also plenty of smaller private conversations. And more generally (before the current situation) - I even heard Yuli Tamir, a former Israeli education minister (Labour) unequivocally stating that Israelis should learn Palestinian history in school and vice versa. At all the 2022-23 anti-government protests I attended there were ALWAYS signs concerned with the equality of Palestinian citizens and with the occupation. In other words, there are plenty of Israelis who really don't care about Palestinians. But a huge number of Israelis really do. But, even so, the first anniversary of 7/10 is not where those big issues will be aired.

israelilefty · 06/10/2024 20:30

As an example of a thoughtful and complex post by an Israeli thinking about memory and commemoration, I give you instead this public Facebook post by Yamit Hagar. Not a well-known figure, just a thoughtful post someone shared. I've AI translated it into English:

When I was little and we moved from Zikhron Ya'akov to Holon, I shared a room with my younger brother. There wasn't space for two bookcases, so Mom built one big one reaching the ceiling and spanning most of the room. Where there was a shelf on my side, my brother had a spot to hang a picture, and vice versa - creating a whole scattered bookcase. My half was painted red and his green. It split the room in two.

When I wanted more storage space, Mom suggested we build a train from empty shoeboxes, gluing them together and storing it under the bed - and so we did.

I lost my private room but gained a crazy piece of furniture and a secret train under the bed. I started filling it with letters from my cousin. I lost those when the internet was invented, along with the anticipation for letters, but I got much quicker responses via email. We lost privacy when smartphones were invented, but gained connections to all the friends and loved ones we've ever met in life, united in various invented networks. In the army, we lost freedom but I got to meet many types of people from all over the country, which we didn't have before. Later, we lost the desire to live with our parents but gained independence, maturity, and India. At some point, COVID came and we lost the ability to enter places without green passes and passports, but we gained the ability to choose not to vaccinate, drink coffee at home, and feel responsible for our lives.

But in the last two years, things started to get complicated, as if the rules of the game had changed. I lost both my parents and what I gained was knowing they died at home and were spared suffering because all their children, sisters, and brothers didn't die before them. And since the war, we keep losing and losing and it's not clear what we're gaining in return. We're losing people and babies, homes, the south, the north, we're losing sanity, stability, security, calm, sweet routine, the economy, the peace of traveling safely on public transport, the fruits of all that's been built. We're losing women and people we didn't know and we're losing them with many tears.

At some point, I started taking care of my mental health, I lost the ability to do it alone, but I gained the ability to stop crying before 7:30 every day. We're losing sleep hours and the ability to sleep peacefully but gaining the ability to check our empathy in extreme situations. The mother murdered last week in Jaffa lost her life but her baby was saved thanks to her shielding him. Her husband lost his wife but gained good women donating breast milk to his baby and not letting him stay alone in his devastation. We lost calm in the night of ballistic missiles, but gained our discovery in real-time of who we worried about and who inquired about our well-being in return.

I lost the taken-for-granted feeling that our country would save women, children, and men before doing anything else and gained the bitter truth in my face - that I can forget about it. This wound is forever, even if they return everyone tomorrow. Emaciated bodies of women returning to us after almost a year of suffering, we've lost our sanity over this, we've gained the miserable and abandoning truth.

At times we lose the desire to be here but gain asking ourselves the big questions of life like what is home, what do we sanctify and what burns in us more, what will I settle with my soul and what do we want from our lives. We're losing the security for long lives because missiles and bullets are chasing us but gaining the need to quickly answer these questions.

Many people around me complain about extreme fatigue and lack of energy, weakness and difficulties in motivation to do work things and in general. The only strange thing about this is that there's some expectation that it would be different, in all the craziness of this year. War is exhausting. Guilt is exhausting. Sadness and depression are exhausting. Despair and loss of hope every other day is exhausting. Instability of all kinds is exhausting.

We are losing the ability to feel normal but gaining the ability to congratulate ourselves that in an ongoing extreme situation we somehow manage to function at some level.

The questions are what's left to lose and how to return life to its course. Will we send our children to learn Arabic? Will the education system teach only what was done to us in the war, or also what we did? Will we go back to talking only about our losses or will we tell the whole story and be sad for every baby and child without a filter on our hearts? Will we go back to reading half the news? Will we give the survivors different lives here than what we gave to Holocaust survivors? Will we invest part of our time in being there for others? Will we want to practice wanting peace and not more blood? Which emotions learned a lesson? Will we learn Arabic? Will we learn? Will we pass on hatred? Will we unravel a desire for revenge? Will we continue to protest if we don't get back the last of the hostages? During the rest of our lives will there be some days on which we don't have to think about this war? Will we stay? Will the country remain? Will we be part of the rehabilitation? Will we want to? Will we be?

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 20:54

I don't know how you can say in the same breath that there is no mainstream public discourse remembering Palestinian suffering in Israel and yet it is not a situation "tightly bound by ethnicity". It's comparable to the Afghan war in that an atrocity was used as an excuse to perpetrate an absolute horror on a civilian population. And so yes in these circumstances politics dictates that the mainstream discourse must focus on the "us" side as you put it. There are plenty of atrocities that haven't been politicised in the same way, because they've not been needed to justify an awful continuing occupation and war. Thank you for translating the Facebook post.

israelilefty · 06/10/2024 21:20

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 20:54

I don't know how you can say in the same breath that there is no mainstream public discourse remembering Palestinian suffering in Israel and yet it is not a situation "tightly bound by ethnicity". It's comparable to the Afghan war in that an atrocity was used as an excuse to perpetrate an absolute horror on a civilian population. And so yes in these circumstances politics dictates that the mainstream discourse must focus on the "us" side as you put it. There are plenty of atrocities that haven't been politicised in the same way, because they've not been needed to justify an awful continuing occupation and war. Thank you for translating the Facebook post.

What I mean to counter is Klein's insinuation that this is about Jewish ethnicity. It's not, it's about Israeli national identity. On the Israeli side, plenty of non-Jewish people (Palestinian-Israelis, foreign nationals) have been victims of Oct 7 and the war and they are also part of the national narrative of grief and memory.

But seriously, as I pointed out in several posts above, for Israelis commemorating the atrocity on Oct 7 is not about justifying the occupation or the war or whatever the hell the government might want. Yes, even those of us who spent the year protesting for a ceasefire are going to memorials. Because it's about our actual grief and trauma and processing because people we knew or were friends of friends were killed or maimed in the most horrific ways and we have spent a year living a reality which is in itself difficult and traumatic. I've lost count of the number of friends of mine who have lost first cousins. I know multiple people personally who were evacuated from kibbutzim on the Gaza border, and who are still displaced from their homes in the north. I've spent the year explaining to a preschooler why the police can't just go and get the hostages, and trying to make a game out of running to the bomb shelter. I still oppose the government and believe in a two-state solution. But I also need space to mourn what happened in my own circles and reality.

As Fania Oz Salzburger, an Israeli leftist put it on Twitter today:

"All the talk about Israel “weaponizing trauma” may sound like criticism of the government, but in fact it’s a vicious cancellation of Israeli civil society. Millions of traumatized individuals. To those aiming to police my grief I say, as I have been saying for a year: fuck you."

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 21:39

But she says this in her article! That there's plenty of human level grief and trauma processing - which you describe yourself. And then this other thing which is where the trauma is being deployed politically. Which you also accept is happening.

HermioneWeasley · 06/10/2024 21:53

Perhaps some of it has been cataloged because of the constant denial of what happened, even though the terrorists filmed it on go pros and live streamed it. Some people watched their loved ones being killed on the family’s Facebook page.

because to my eternal astonishment people believe whatever Hamas tells them about Israel, except when they literally filmed themselves committing atrocities and then it was somehow Jewish propaganda.

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 21:54

Yes, this is referenced too in the article.

israelilefty · 06/10/2024 22:00

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 21:39

But she says this in her article! That there's plenty of human level grief and trauma processing - which you describe yourself. And then this other thing which is where the trauma is being deployed politically. Which you also accept is happening.

My point, which I’ve already reiterated, is that her examples of “trauma being deployed politically” are almost all from outside Israel. And while I myself don’t identify with the government’s memorial ceremony, I find it distasteful that she is critiquing or considering inherently “political” the idea that the government is organising a central memorial ceremony on the first anniversary of Oct 7. It would be pretty shocking if they didn’t. Human level processing is also collective. Most people I know will be watching the “alternative” ceremony (which somehow she doesn’t consider dismissing as “political” as it is identified with those calling for a ceasefire deal).

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 22:08

You said: "Of course there isn't a robust mainstream public discourse on remembering Palestinians in Israel, just like the US didn't have a mainstream public discourse on remembering Afghans after 9/11, and so on. When there is an ongoing conflict, memorials are inevitably focused on the "us" side."

That is about as political a form of memorialisation as you can describe, used to justify an ongoing occupation and war, which you simultaneously want to disavow and also defend as not being politicised at all, all the politicisation is apparently happening elsewhere.

Streetcred · 07/10/2024 11:42

wanderingstar23 · 06/10/2024 22:08

You said: "Of course there isn't a robust mainstream public discourse on remembering Palestinians in Israel, just like the US didn't have a mainstream public discourse on remembering Afghans after 9/11, and so on. When there is an ongoing conflict, memorials are inevitably focused on the "us" side."

That is about as political a form of memorialisation as you can describe, used to justify an ongoing occupation and war, which you simultaneously want to disavow and also defend as not being politicised at all, all the politicisation is apparently happening elsewhere.

You are implying that in not commemorating Palestinians, the Israeli government is being manipulative. I think it’s bizarre to expect a country at war to commemorate the dead on the other side. I haven’t heard of anyone doing that tbh.

I suspect that this is a kind of linguistic game you are playing, because you think Palestinians are in some way Israeli and therefore they are not a foreign enemy. This is the same logic used by people who consider Israel to be an ‘apartheid state’. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I don’t think this holds up at all because most Israelis and Palestinians don’t see Israel and Palestine as one country.

wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 11:50

@Streetcred please consider yourself corrected. That’s not the point I was making. Try again.

SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 11:53

Its worth noting thst at the event to honour tbe victims of 7 October yesterday, all victims of the conflict, including Palestinians, were mentioned.

Streetcred · 07/10/2024 11:57

wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 11:50

@Streetcred please consider yourself corrected. That’s not the point I was making. Try again.

I won’t play games with a subject like this, sorry.

wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 11:59

@Streetcred indeed and neither will I. If you want to engage then I am here for it but what I am not here for is wasting my time arguing with someone who comes at it with an accusation that I am playing games. I am very very serious.

wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 12:04

So if you would like to start again with a good faith question, engaging with me in a way that doesn't open with an accusation and a challenge for me to prove that I am not playing games, I am here for it.

Dulra · 07/10/2024 12:20

SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 11:53

Its worth noting thst at the event to honour tbe victims of 7 October yesterday, all victims of the conflict, including Palestinians, were mentioned.

That was a lovely respectful gesture thanks for sharing

HelenHen · 07/10/2024 13:07

Streetcred · 07/10/2024 11:42

You are implying that in not commemorating Palestinians, the Israeli government is being manipulative. I think it’s bizarre to expect a country at war to commemorate the dead on the other side. I haven’t heard of anyone doing that tbh.

I suspect that this is a kind of linguistic game you are playing, because you think Palestinians are in some way Israeli and therefore they are not a foreign enemy. This is the same logic used by people who consider Israel to be an ‘apartheid state’. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I don’t think this holds up at all because most Israelis and Palestinians don’t see Israel and Palestine as one country.

Wow, that's a ridiculous leap to make. Why would you even suggest that?

OP posts:
wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 13:22

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wanderingstar23 · 07/10/2024 13:24

And yes I am baffled that anyone would read my posts and think I am playing linguistic games.

HelenHen · 07/10/2024 14:43

SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 11:53

Its worth noting thst at the event to honour tbe victims of 7 October yesterday, all victims of the conflict, including Palestinians, were mentioned.

Sorry I missed this post. Thank you though. I am glad that was the case and it is indeed a lovely gesture.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 14:47

HelenHen · 07/10/2024 14:43

Sorry I missed this post. Thank you though. I am glad that was the case and it is indeed a lovely gesture.

Not only mentioned but warmly applauded by the whole crowd.

HelenHen · 07/10/2024 15:08

SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 14:47

Not only mentioned but warmly applauded by the whole crowd.

That gives me some hope.

OP posts:
GentleScroller · 07/10/2024 18:31

I think the author of this piece, Naomi Klein, has made her feelings very clear in the past on what she thinks is the rationale of Zionist believers and the Netanyahu government. None of it is complimentary, but I decided to read this piece and give her the benefit of the doubt. I could grasp some of her points, but the timing of this publication is extraordinarily insensitive. It is a shame that she published this piece without waiting to attend a memorial service for the 7th October attacks. I’m sure she would have thought twice about publishing it in this format if she had.

I attended the memorial event in Hyde Park; what struck me the most was how restrained people were in the crowd. They weren’t angry or calling for the destruction of Gaza and everyone in it. They were calm, composed, sincere and deep in thought, listening intently to all the speakers. They had come together as a community to honour the victims of 7th October and, as another person remarked, to honour all victims of the conflict, including Palestinians.

No cleverly crafted propaganda was at play, just an outpouring of grief to remember the murdered and those kidnapped. Marking the anniversary of someone’s death, coming face to face with the time of year a person died, is extremely painful. We should all respect that, something Naomi Klein and the Guardian newspaper chose to ignore.

If Naomi Klein wants to write a piece about propaganda, then I’d suggest she does it whilst standing on either side of the border between Israel and Gaza. Then, I might be more inclined to give credence to her assessment of what a sincere collective outpouring of grief is. I suggest she write a piece on grief and propaganda and how it has been used by both sides to defend the undefendable.

SharonEllis · 07/10/2024 18:35

Beautifully put @GentleScroller

israelilefty · 07/10/2024 20:24

If anything, the story of Oct 7 memorials in Israel has been one of the antithesis of Klein's thesis: the refusal of bereaved families to co-operate with the official government-organised state ceremony, which ended up with the "unofficial" grassroots national ceremony organised by the bereaved families themselves being the one broadcast by all three major TV stations at prime time , while the "official" government-sponsored ceremony was recorded in advance and relegated to a late-night slot and is right now being pointedly ignored by Ynet, Israel's most popular news site, which has relegated it to a sub-headline.

The "unofficial" commemoration was a incredibly moving ceremony - I don't think I have ever cried so much in two hours. Simple testimonies, most focused on love and aching loss, interleaved with songs. There were moments of harrowing recollections - how could there not be? - but in a respectful and not overdone way. The bravery recounted again and again wasn't that of gung-ho fighters, it was of paramedics and police officers who went out and did everything they could with live fire around them, and of reserve soldiers who fell defending the gates of communities in order to buy time for the civilian residents. A bereaved Palestinian-Israeli woman spoke in Arabic saying: I know it's hard for some of you to hear this language, but this is the language in which my mother spoke lovingly to my brother.

Of course this "non-political" ceremony was political, with biting criticism aimed at the government. Speakers called for a hostage deal, for a state enquiry into the failures of Oct 7 and for politicians to take responsibility. It was the ceremony of the huge proportion of Israeli society who was already aching for political and societal change way before Oct 7 and has been on the streets calling for a ceasefire/hostage deal for months. As singer Ivri Lider's shirt read: "May their memory be a revolution".

So sorry Klein - you can't get more mainstream public discourse in Israel than prime time TV on Oct 7, and right there, trauma is being marshalled not in support of war and occupation, but rather in support of the values and changes in society that are a necessary first step towards ending them. I do't want to express undue optimism, but I really hope that progressive voices outside Israel will feel empowered to echo these messages, and not equate the "legitimate" Israeli voice with its deeply unpopular government.

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