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Conflict in the Middle East

Has Israel 'made Trauma a weapon of war'?

149 replies

HelenHen · 05/10/2024 19:02

Asks this article in the guardian. It's a very long read, but raises some points that I haven't really seen the media raise before. I'm not sure if my copy paste worked, so might be best to click on the link.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

A slick, high-priced television production. Speeches from top officials. A live audience of thousands. A unified show In Israel’s case, there was a near instant move to graphically re-create the events of 7 October as mediated experiences, sometimes with the goal of countering false claims that deny any atrocities occurred, but often with the explicit goal of reducing sympathy for Palestinians and generating support for Israel’s rapidly expanding wars. Before the one-year mark, there was already an off-Broadway “verbatim play”, called October 7, drawn from witness testimony; several art exhibitions, and at least two 7 October-themed fashion shows, one of which saw models who had survived the attacks or lost loved ones adorn themselves with prosthetic wounds, fake blood and dresses made of shell casings. A model whose fiance was killed in the attack, for instance, “wore a white wedding dress with a ‘bullet hole’ in her heart”, reported the Jewish News. “Israel’s back in fashion,” read a dissonant headline about the show in the Jewish Chronicle.
Then there are the 7 October films, already an emerging subgenre. First came the Israeli military’s Bearing Witness, which compiled the most graphic and horrific moments captured on video that day. Within weeks of the attacks, it was being screened to curated audiences of politicians, business leaders and journalists everywhere from Davos to the Museum of Tolerance in LA. This was followed by a slew of more professional documentaries, including Screams Before Silence, about sexual violence, fronted by the former Meta COO Sheryl Sandberg; #Nova, which uses phone and body-camera video to create a “minute-by-minute” account of the “bone-chilling atrocities”; and the BBC’s Surviving October 7: We Will Dance Again, which does much the same. “America’s most-watched faith network”, TBN, aired a four-part special about the attacks that was seven hours in total.
Dramatic treatments take a little more time, but there are several in the works, including October 7, a feature film from the creators of Fauda, as well as the scripted series One Day in October, developed by Fox, slated to air this month.
Most unusual is the decision by the Israeli director Alon Daniel to make a realistic film entirely out of miniatures. His team spent months painstakingly re-creating a dollhouse of horrors: everything from the barbed-wire fence that Hamas breached, to the burned-out cars and bullet-riddled portable toilets at the Nova music festival. A member of the production told Haaretz: “We printed these little stall models in 3D and painted them, and initially it was fun to see it. But it was equally horrifying. There was such a dissonance here between the cute and the horrific.”
Because ours is a world riven by violence and injustice, there is a huge body of literature about the ethics of memorializing real-world atrocity. How do you evoke horror without exploiting it? How do you avoid reinscribing the idea that some kinds of bodies are destined for violence, and thereby make it more likely? How do you avoid asking survivors to relive their worst traumas over and over again? How do you prevent a traumatic response in the viewer, who may have a history of facing violence themselves? Is there an accompanying process for reparation and healing? Relatedly, how do you avoid evoking dangerous emotions, like hate and revenge, which can only lead to more tragedy and more trauma?
Amy Sodaro, a sociologist and author of Exhibiting Atrocity: Memorial Museums and the Politics of Past Violence, told me: “These are questions that people who are engaged in memorial work are constantly engaging with. It’s deeply political work.”
During the weeks I spent researching the sprawling memory culture that emerged post-7 October – the bloody wedding dresses, the tiny burned-out cars and the looping final voicemails – I searched in vain for evidence that these questions have been wrestled with at all. Nor did I find any reckoning with the reality that many facts are still unknown, which is why so many victim families are demanding an independent investigation.
With very few exceptions, the primary goal of these diverse works seems to be the transference of trauma to the audience: re-creating terrifying events with such vividness and intimacy that a viewer or visitor experiences a kind of identity merger, as if they themselves have been violated.
A New Yorker who watched the “verbatim play” October 7 reported: “I felt I was actually living the experience … I felt there and [the play was] able to transfer to me the feeling.” The producers were so pleased by the reaction they shared it on social media. A screening of the Israeli military’s 7 October compilation “left the audience in shambles. People walked out of the room in silence, either crying or simply shellshocked,” the Anti-Defamation League’s Jonathan Greenblatt told the New York Times – and that, too, was a compliment.
All efforts at commemoration aim to touch the hearts of people who were not there. But there is a difference between inspiring an emotional connection and deliberately putting people into a shellshocked, traumatized state. Achieving the latter result is why so much 7 October memorialization boasts that it is “immersive” – offering viewers and participants the chance to crawl inside the pain of others, based on a guiding assumption that the more people there are who experience the trauma of 7 October as if it was their own, the better off the world will be. Or rather, the better off Israel will be.
Nowhere is the trauma transference goal more explicit than in Israel’s booming “dark tourism” sector. For months, synagogues and Jewish federations from around the world have been sponsoring trips that take their supporters on “solidarity missions” to southern Israel. Their tour buses line the edges of the site of the Nova festival, which is now filled with memorials to the hundreds of people who were killed and kidnapped there. And, much to the consternation of some locals, they also step over the rubble to crowd into the still ravaged kibbutzim.
Last February, the reporter Maya Rosen shadowed several of these tours for an extensive Jewish Currents article on the eerie phenomenon. She saw decimated homes preserved like mausoleums, including one of a 23-year-old couple killed in the attack. The tours wander through its rooms where “screenshots of [Sivan] Elkabetz’s last, frantic WhatsApp conversations with her parents had been printed out and tacked to the walls, alongside letters that her mother had written to her after her death.”
This goes beyond a drive to “touch ‘the real’”, a term used by the Queen’s University Belfast scholar Debbie Lisle to describe the crush of tourists who flocked to Ground Zero after the September 11 attacks. Because of the extraordinary volume of intensely personal communications now preserved through voice and text messages (and many in these communities texted and called continuously for many hours, waiting for help that never arrived), combined with access to physical locations where blood and signs of struggle have been left untouched, the participants on these missions almost feel like they have themselves been through the interminable attack.
“An American rabbi who led a trip for her community told me about hearing story after story of people who were killed,” Rosen writes. They learned everything, “‘step by step, where it happened, how it happened, how many hours people were locked in their safe rooms, when people were shot through their window or taken out of their house’. These images gave her nightmares for the next five nights, she said.”
There are other such embodied experiences on offer, including in Tel Aviv’s “Hostages Square”, where tourists a dark, 30-meter-long concrete “immersive mock Hamas tunnel”. To simulate the experience of a hostage, the structure was equipped with the sound of ambient explosions from fighting overhead.
It is hard to believe, given the volume already available, but far more 7 October memorializing is still to come. Despite a worsening economic crisis, last month, the Israeli cabinet approved a proposal from Netanyahu to spend $86m on future memorialization projects related to 7 October and the multi-front military campaigns that have raged since. The money will be spent on the preservation of “heritage infrastructure” (AKA damaged buildings); the creation of a new commemorative site, the establishment of an annual national holiday, and much else.
In the meantime, for those not able to make the trip to Israel, there are VR experiences available – including the VR “Gaza Envelope 360 tour”, a 35-minute video, offered in English and Hebrew, that guides viewers around Israeli communities that came under attack on 7 October. In a portion of the tour posted online, the brother of one of the victims leads the camera around the house where the attack occurred and points to blood still on the floor. This, too, is a 7 October subgenre: one “immersive storytelling platform” invites visitors on a selection of 3D tours of homes. As you navigate from one debris-strewn room to another, audio plays terrified messages sent to relatives from safe rooms.
There are also more tactile traumatic experiences travelling the world. Most prominent (and controversial) among them is the Nova Exhibition. The vast, dimly lit installation is designed to re-create the music festival down to the sand, camping tents and the burned cars – and to transmit the bodily feeling of having that trippy experience suddenly interrupted by horrific violence. The show, which is still touring, and includes real objects collected at the site, attracted more than 100,000 visitors in New York alone, including several politicians.
This, once again, is a departure from the way recent traumatic events – from mass shootings to climate disasters – are generally memorialized by artists. Usually, the work is far more elliptical, mindful of re-traumatizing families, terrifying visitors and disrespecting the dead. For instance, memorialists do not tend to bring spectators en masse into darkened high school hallways strewn with fake blood and the sounds of weapon fire and children’s desperate cries in order to motivate action about gun violence.
One review, for the art site Filthy Dreams, compared the Nova exhibition to a bizarre cross between a campfire singalong and one of those evangelical Hell Houses, designed to scare teens about the dangers of premarital sex. “Do we really need to stand on victims’ yoga mats to feel the horrors of people at a music festival being butchered?” asked the art critic Emily Colucci. “Is straddling an upturned lawn chair while gawking at blurred-out bodies truly the best way to remember the dead? And why is it so goddamn dark in here?! I understood October 7th was bad without doing this.”
There is a difference between understanding an event, which preserves the mind’s analytic capacity as well as one’s sense of self, and feeling like you are personally living through it. The latter produces not understanding but what Sodaro has called a “prosthetic trauma”, which, she writes, is highly conducive to “a simplistic dualism between good and evil that has important political implications”.
Consumers of these experiences are encouraged to feel a distilled bond with the victims, who are the essence of good, and a distilled hatred for their aggressors, who are the essence of evil. The traumatized state is pure feeling, pure reaction. Vision is narrowed, tunneled.
In this state, we do not ask what isn’t included in the frame of the immersive experience. And in the case of the deluge of immersive art being produced to commemorate 7 October, what is not included is Palestine, specifically Gaza. Not the decades of strangled conditions of life on the other side of the wall that led up to the attacks – and not the tens of thousands of Palestinian people, including wrenching numbers of infants and children, whom Israel has killed and maimed since 7 October.
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”
And that is precisely the point.
When Jewish tourists from New York or Montreal attempt to merge with the trauma at the Nova festival site, or at a destroyed kibbutz, they are close enough to Gaza to hear the explosions from the Israeli bombs in Jabaliya and Khan Younis – to see the smoke, and on particularly heavy days, feel the vibrations in their bodies. But as Maya Rosen reported, despite this intensity, it is as if they cannot hear, or cannot register what it is that they are hearing. A staff member working on these trips observed that participants are “deep within their own trauma, and that trauma is crowding out the suffering the war is causing”.
These tourists, like the consumers of so many of these gory, immersive (if highly selective) experiences, say they are there to “bear witness”, the mantra of modern memorialization. But it is unclear exactly what they mean. When experts in mass atrocities speak of the importance of “bearing witness”, they are referring to a specific way of seeing. This kind of witnessing, often of crimes that have been long denied or suppressed by powerful states, is an act of refusal – a refusal of that denial. It is also a way to honour the dead, both by keeping their stories alive, and by enlisting their spirits in a project of justice-seeking to prevent a repeat of similar atrocities in the future.
But not all witnessing is done in this spirit. Sometimes witnessing is itself a form of denial, marshalled by savvy states to form the justification for other, far greater atrocities. Narrow and hyper-directed at one’s own in-group, it becomes a way to avoid looking at the harsh realities of those atrocities, or of actively justifying them. This witnessing is more like hiding, and at its most extreme, it can provide rationalizations for genocide.
It is in this context that some of the most fraught debates this past year in the anti-war camp have been over the politics of mourning, producing a novel and painful lexicon of grief. While many (including me) openly grieved the Israeli civilians killed in the 7 October attacks, many also pointed out that Palestinian lives are systematically treated as “ungrievable” (invoking a phrase from Judith Butler). In contrast, Israeli lives are, in the words of the historian Gabriel Winant, “pre-grieved”, because “an apparatus is already in place to take their deaths and give them not just any meaning, but specifically the meaning that they find in the bombs falling on Gaza.”

How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war

A year later, memorials to the 7 October attacks use art, virtual reality and dark tourism to stir support for limitless violence. But there is a different way to remember

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

OP posts:
LetThereBeLove · 08/10/2024 21:10

Thank you @Israelilefty for your erudite posts. Am Yisroel Chai

HelenHen · 08/10/2024 21:17

itsmabeline · 08/10/2024 20:12

Why is Israel the only country in the world that gets so much hate for basic self defence?

What exactly do you think Starmer would do if a bunch of Norwegians invaded tomorrow raping and burning children and said they wanted the death of all Brits?

We'd invade and start world war three if necessary.
Everyone would be demanding it.
18 year olds would be champing at the bit to sign up to the army.

This is not 'basic self defence'.

Yes I would expect the british government to respond. However 7/10 did not occur in a vacuum so it's incomparable to imaginary Norwegians invading Britain. Also I would expect the international community to demand restraint if the British government were targeting children, hospitals, refugee camps, schools, etc.

OP posts:
israelilefty · 08/10/2024 21:51

@wanderingstar23, you're deliberately misreading me, and I assume you're just being goady. I really object to Klein's appalling suggestion that there are Jews claiming that they get some kind of "free genocide" card because of the Holocaust. Her statement, which is from 2009, obviously was not referring to the current ICJ case against Israel, and neither was I.

It's late at night so I'm not going to write more on this right now. If you really want some of my thoughts on the current conflict, there is a 25-page AMA thread somewhere in the depths of Mumsnet from a few months back.

@Streetcred you asked me to comment about whether Israelis believe that the only answer is force. It's another really big topic. Personally, I think that we should do everything possible to bring this conflict to an end. Now. But security concerns are real, and I think a lot of Israelis, especially the left, really felt lost after October 7 as it became very, very hard to imagine a peaceful way forward. As I've written before elsewhere - for people in the UK far removed from the conflict it's easy to call for a unilateral ceasefire. For me to do that requires me to think about the safety of members of my extended family who live in one of the kibbutzim a kilometre or so from the Gaza border. It's very hard for me to imagine they would be safe if Hamas remains in control of Gaza. Likewise, it's more challenging for me to imagine a peaceful coexistence with Hezbollah remaining on the northern border after half a rocket of theirs landed in the supermarket carpark in my town a couple of days ago - and I don't even live anywhere near the border communities which have been utterly wrecked by Hezbollah rockets this year (it doesn't really make it to the news, for example, that over 90 schools in Israel's north have been damaged by these rockets so far). Most Israelis see this as a conflict with Iran's proxies, and one that cannot go back to the previous status quo.

Yes, the destruction in Israel is far less than the destruction in Lebanon and Gaza - owing to our stronger military and defences rather than to the desire of our enemies to do us less damage - but dismissing the real safety concerns of Israelis regarding terrorist groups on our borders who actively seek to harm civilians is not helpful. These experiences explain why even on the left, most Israelis favoured some kind of military action. But it's not a black and white case of either call for a unilateral ceasefire or support an open-ended, unlimited war and wanton abuse of human rights. Most moderate politicians and even the army itself have repeatedly recommended accepting a ceasefire already for a very long time. Yes, the hostages and the safety of Israelis near the northern and Gaza borders are the focus but that doesn't exclude concern for Palestinian civilians. There is low trust in the way the government has handled the war. Many, many Israelis for example vehemently objected to Galant's siege on Gaza - I even heard a supermarket checkout operator almost in tears saying, yes, they are our enemy but it's absolutely forbidden to starve them!

In short. It would be easier if it were black and white, but it isn't. I wish I had a magic solution, but I don't.

SharonEllis · 08/10/2024 21:56

israelilefty · 08/10/2024 21:51

@wanderingstar23, you're deliberately misreading me, and I assume you're just being goady. I really object to Klein's appalling suggestion that there are Jews claiming that they get some kind of "free genocide" card because of the Holocaust. Her statement, which is from 2009, obviously was not referring to the current ICJ case against Israel, and neither was I.

It's late at night so I'm not going to write more on this right now. If you really want some of my thoughts on the current conflict, there is a 25-page AMA thread somewhere in the depths of Mumsnet from a few months back.

@Streetcred you asked me to comment about whether Israelis believe that the only answer is force. It's another really big topic. Personally, I think that we should do everything possible to bring this conflict to an end. Now. But security concerns are real, and I think a lot of Israelis, especially the left, really felt lost after October 7 as it became very, very hard to imagine a peaceful way forward. As I've written before elsewhere - for people in the UK far removed from the conflict it's easy to call for a unilateral ceasefire. For me to do that requires me to think about the safety of members of my extended family who live in one of the kibbutzim a kilometre or so from the Gaza border. It's very hard for me to imagine they would be safe if Hamas remains in control of Gaza. Likewise, it's more challenging for me to imagine a peaceful coexistence with Hezbollah remaining on the northern border after half a rocket of theirs landed in the supermarket carpark in my town a couple of days ago - and I don't even live anywhere near the border communities which have been utterly wrecked by Hezbollah rockets this year (it doesn't really make it to the news, for example, that over 90 schools in Israel's north have been damaged by these rockets so far). Most Israelis see this as a conflict with Iran's proxies, and one that cannot go back to the previous status quo.

Yes, the destruction in Israel is far less than the destruction in Lebanon and Gaza - owing to our stronger military and defences rather than to the desire of our enemies to do us less damage - but dismissing the real safety concerns of Israelis regarding terrorist groups on our borders who actively seek to harm civilians is not helpful. These experiences explain why even on the left, most Israelis favoured some kind of military action. But it's not a black and white case of either call for a unilateral ceasefire or support an open-ended, unlimited war and wanton abuse of human rights. Most moderate politicians and even the army itself have repeatedly recommended accepting a ceasefire already for a very long time. Yes, the hostages and the safety of Israelis near the northern and Gaza borders are the focus but that doesn't exclude concern for Palestinian civilians. There is low trust in the way the government has handled the war. Many, many Israelis for example vehemently objected to Galant's siege on Gaza - I even heard a supermarket checkout operator almost in tears saying, yes, they are our enemy but it's absolutely forbidden to starve them!

In short. It would be easier if it were black and white, but it isn't. I wish I had a magic solution, but I don't.

I do hope people give your posts the consideration they deserve. Thank you for taking the time.

inamarina · 08/10/2024 23:23

israelilefty · 08/10/2024 21:51

@wanderingstar23, you're deliberately misreading me, and I assume you're just being goady. I really object to Klein's appalling suggestion that there are Jews claiming that they get some kind of "free genocide" card because of the Holocaust. Her statement, which is from 2009, obviously was not referring to the current ICJ case against Israel, and neither was I.

It's late at night so I'm not going to write more on this right now. If you really want some of my thoughts on the current conflict, there is a 25-page AMA thread somewhere in the depths of Mumsnet from a few months back.

@Streetcred you asked me to comment about whether Israelis believe that the only answer is force. It's another really big topic. Personally, I think that we should do everything possible to bring this conflict to an end. Now. But security concerns are real, and I think a lot of Israelis, especially the left, really felt lost after October 7 as it became very, very hard to imagine a peaceful way forward. As I've written before elsewhere - for people in the UK far removed from the conflict it's easy to call for a unilateral ceasefire. For me to do that requires me to think about the safety of members of my extended family who live in one of the kibbutzim a kilometre or so from the Gaza border. It's very hard for me to imagine they would be safe if Hamas remains in control of Gaza. Likewise, it's more challenging for me to imagine a peaceful coexistence with Hezbollah remaining on the northern border after half a rocket of theirs landed in the supermarket carpark in my town a couple of days ago - and I don't even live anywhere near the border communities which have been utterly wrecked by Hezbollah rockets this year (it doesn't really make it to the news, for example, that over 90 schools in Israel's north have been damaged by these rockets so far). Most Israelis see this as a conflict with Iran's proxies, and one that cannot go back to the previous status quo.

Yes, the destruction in Israel is far less than the destruction in Lebanon and Gaza - owing to our stronger military and defences rather than to the desire of our enemies to do us less damage - but dismissing the real safety concerns of Israelis regarding terrorist groups on our borders who actively seek to harm civilians is not helpful. These experiences explain why even on the left, most Israelis favoured some kind of military action. But it's not a black and white case of either call for a unilateral ceasefire or support an open-ended, unlimited war and wanton abuse of human rights. Most moderate politicians and even the army itself have repeatedly recommended accepting a ceasefire already for a very long time. Yes, the hostages and the safety of Israelis near the northern and Gaza borders are the focus but that doesn't exclude concern for Palestinian civilians. There is low trust in the way the government has handled the war. Many, many Israelis for example vehemently objected to Galant's siege on Gaza - I even heard a supermarket checkout operator almost in tears saying, yes, they are our enemy but it's absolutely forbidden to starve them!

In short. It would be easier if it were black and white, but it isn't. I wish I had a magic solution, but I don't.

Thank you for your very insightful posts.

wanderingstar23 · 09/10/2024 06:40

@israelilefty no, not "deliberately goady", and I would appreciate it if you could desist from questioning my intent. Everything I say here is meant in the utmost seriousness. I am curious though as to your point about the timing of the statement, why does that matter? Are you suggesting that 7/10 is the event that finally makes genocide defendable? Which would sort of be what Klein was getting at in her later article - that certainly the propaganda around 7/10 would seek to position it thus. Because the point about the timing as I take it is that Palestinians have been terribly treated for an awfully long time, othered and dehumanised in a way that smells of a coming genocide, this has been called out by people like Naomi Klein (who have been roundly attacked and excommunicated for this as you well know), and appears to now be in full swing. You can sit there on the ground saying it's not like that here, it's so subtle and nuanced, all that nasty stuff is happening elsewhere, in the diaspora, imagined by goady journos, but at the end of the day let's just focus for one moment on the people it's happening to, who you've barely mentioned in any of your posts.

SharonEllis · 09/10/2024 07:04

@wanderingstar23 thats a nasty & unreasonable insinuation.

israelilefty · 09/10/2024 07:20

@wanderingstar23 We can differ about whether to apply the term "genocide" before the ICJ ruling while still agreeing that the destruction of civilian life and property in Gaza is shocking and appalling. This is (was) a thread about Naomi Klein's statements about the Jewish community and about Israeli discourse, not about how individual posters relate to what is happening in Gaza, Lebanon and Israel. I did send you to my other thread, but fwiw I'll restate here that I'm active on the Israeli left and I've been on the streets protesting for a ceasefire and hostage deal since early in the war. I've also protested for years against the occupation. I do what I can in my personal and professional capacities to work against war and occupation. I did not vote for this government or its politics. The war has to end. The occupation has to end. Hamas and Bibi have to go: their policies have utterly failed their peoples and led us to death and destruction. Our children deserve a world in which they can grow up safe and without fear. But I don't think that inflammatory and warped statements about Jewish and Israeli discourse like Klein's help that to happen, in the same way that I don't think that inflammatory and warped statements about Palestinians and Palestinian discourse help either.

The reason I've been on this thread is that one of the things that I have found profoundly difficult during the past year is how both "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" voices overseas have consistently amplified divisive rhetoric and have consistently dismissed and silenced those Palestinian and Israeli voices who are willing to have the conversations that might lead to something better here for all of us. I get that the word "genocide" has become a keystone for many pro-Palestinian people. But guess what. Even if the ICJ accepts that Israel has committed genocide (I'm not sure this is going to happen), or even if the entire Arab world denounces Hamas (I'm also not sure this is going to happen), we're still going to have to sit down and talk, because nobody between the river and the sea is going anywhere, and the only viable option is a two state solution. If I can walk straight out of my protected room during another siren and put on Lebanese music and think about civilians, if bereaved Palestinians and Israelis can sit down and talk, if our former education minister can talk about Israelis learning the Palestinian narrative, this can and will happen. But it will be despite rather than because of the incredibly divisive discourse promoted overseas and the utter dismissal of those acknowledging the complexity of this conflict and the complicity of many elements from both sides in prolonging it.

On a lighter note, I just got stuck in my apartment's protected room during a rocket siren with a totally random Russian building worker who happened to be outside when the siren went off. AWKWARD 😂

User37482 · 09/10/2024 07:58

HelenHen · 06/10/2024 09:47

It seems some of you haven't even read the article.

Firstly, I did not post it on the anniversary, as that is tomorrow.

Secondly the author does not single out Israel as not being 'allowed to' grieve like everyone else. The author queries why so much money, at a time of war, is being pumped into big productions, VR and immersive experiences. It is also something that the US has been guilty of, when you look at how Hollywood, for example, has worked with the US military in order to raise public support for the military. It has worked very effectively for US.

The private commemoration or public marches are totally appropriate. It is the Hollywood style stuff that the author is querying.

I imagine it’s because people just don’t care about Israelis being killed, a lot of people have been utterly dismissive, I’ve met people who deny that any rapes took place. They are trying to say “look, look at the brutality, it’s real, it’s what happened”.

I hate the phrase “weaponising trauma”. it’s a way of shutting up victims and trying to turn them into the aggressors. It’s the most vile sort of gaslighting.

I wouldn’t accuse Palestinians of weaponising their trauma either. They are being traumatised! The trauma of Israelis and Palestinians is all real.

User37482 · 09/10/2024 08:00

israelilefty · 08/10/2024 21:51

@wanderingstar23, you're deliberately misreading me, and I assume you're just being goady. I really object to Klein's appalling suggestion that there are Jews claiming that they get some kind of "free genocide" card because of the Holocaust. Her statement, which is from 2009, obviously was not referring to the current ICJ case against Israel, and neither was I.

It's late at night so I'm not going to write more on this right now. If you really want some of my thoughts on the current conflict, there is a 25-page AMA thread somewhere in the depths of Mumsnet from a few months back.

@Streetcred you asked me to comment about whether Israelis believe that the only answer is force. It's another really big topic. Personally, I think that we should do everything possible to bring this conflict to an end. Now. But security concerns are real, and I think a lot of Israelis, especially the left, really felt lost after October 7 as it became very, very hard to imagine a peaceful way forward. As I've written before elsewhere - for people in the UK far removed from the conflict it's easy to call for a unilateral ceasefire. For me to do that requires me to think about the safety of members of my extended family who live in one of the kibbutzim a kilometre or so from the Gaza border. It's very hard for me to imagine they would be safe if Hamas remains in control of Gaza. Likewise, it's more challenging for me to imagine a peaceful coexistence with Hezbollah remaining on the northern border after half a rocket of theirs landed in the supermarket carpark in my town a couple of days ago - and I don't even live anywhere near the border communities which have been utterly wrecked by Hezbollah rockets this year (it doesn't really make it to the news, for example, that over 90 schools in Israel's north have been damaged by these rockets so far). Most Israelis see this as a conflict with Iran's proxies, and one that cannot go back to the previous status quo.

Yes, the destruction in Israel is far less than the destruction in Lebanon and Gaza - owing to our stronger military and defences rather than to the desire of our enemies to do us less damage - but dismissing the real safety concerns of Israelis regarding terrorist groups on our borders who actively seek to harm civilians is not helpful. These experiences explain why even on the left, most Israelis favoured some kind of military action. But it's not a black and white case of either call for a unilateral ceasefire or support an open-ended, unlimited war and wanton abuse of human rights. Most moderate politicians and even the army itself have repeatedly recommended accepting a ceasefire already for a very long time. Yes, the hostages and the safety of Israelis near the northern and Gaza borders are the focus but that doesn't exclude concern for Palestinian civilians. There is low trust in the way the government has handled the war. Many, many Israelis for example vehemently objected to Galant's siege on Gaza - I even heard a supermarket checkout operator almost in tears saying, yes, they are our enemy but it's absolutely forbidden to starve them!

In short. It would be easier if it were black and white, but it isn't. I wish I had a magic solution, but I don't.

Thank you, that was very informative.

Scirocco · 09/10/2024 08:03

@israelilefty thank you for your posts. It sounds like you're in a somewhat similar situation politically to where I was some years ago, saying "not in my name" as the government of my country pursued a course of action with which I strongly disagreed.

I have friends in Israel and in Palestine and Lebanon. I know people who have been murdered in this conflict, who have been killed, who have been tortured, who have been injured and scarred for life. They can't speak here, so I hope I can speak on their behalf when I say: thank you for trying and please don't give up. There are many people in Palestine and Lebanon who want peace and to find a way to co-exist.

Polka83 · 09/10/2024 08:22

@israelilefty
»The reason I've been on this thread is that one of the things that I have found profoundly difficult during the past year is how both "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" voices overseas have consistently amplified divisive rhetoric and have consistently dismissed and silenced those Palestinian and Israeli voices who are willing to have the conversations that might lead to something better here for all of us. »

It is interesting that you feel that the voices oversea have so much influence on shutting down pro-peace dialogue between Palestinian and Israeli voices within Israel.

As someone who people may say was ‘pro-Palestinian’ - I have only been against the destruction of Gaza and killing of innocent civilians. I also understand the terror of 7/10 for a collection of people who have been through the holocaust and removal from Arab countries. However- I can’t see how the latter justifies the former, particularly as the Israelis have consistently chosen not to work towards a 2SS. The continued ability of settlers to take land in the WB demonstrates this.

My impression is that pro-Palestinian voices are mainly pro-peace and that the marches, student protests etc have happened as leaders failed to reign or even criticise Israeli action.

I appreciate that Netanyahu may lose the election now, but from abroad - I can’t see any meaningful movement within Israel to promote peace - only isolated voices.

Streetcred · 09/10/2024 09:02

Polka83 · 09/10/2024 08:22

@israelilefty
»The reason I've been on this thread is that one of the things that I have found profoundly difficult during the past year is how both "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" voices overseas have consistently amplified divisive rhetoric and have consistently dismissed and silenced those Palestinian and Israeli voices who are willing to have the conversations that might lead to something better here for all of us. »

It is interesting that you feel that the voices oversea have so much influence on shutting down pro-peace dialogue between Palestinian and Israeli voices within Israel.

As someone who people may say was ‘pro-Palestinian’ - I have only been against the destruction of Gaza and killing of innocent civilians. I also understand the terror of 7/10 for a collection of people who have been through the holocaust and removal from Arab countries. However- I can’t see how the latter justifies the former, particularly as the Israelis have consistently chosen not to work towards a 2SS. The continued ability of settlers to take land in the WB demonstrates this.

My impression is that pro-Palestinian voices are mainly pro-peace and that the marches, student protests etc have happened as leaders failed to reign or even criticise Israeli action.

I appreciate that Netanyahu may lose the election now, but from abroad - I can’t see any meaningful movement within Israel to promote peace - only isolated voices.

As @israelilefty says, it is easy to be ‘pro-peace’ (by which I think you mean pro-ceasefire) as a westerner who is not on the receiving end of gun and rocket attacks.

I would assume almost everyone both in the ME and in the west wants peace, but you don’t necessary get that simply by laying down arms unfortunately. This is the reason the conflict continues.

mouthpipette · 09/10/2024 09:46

"we're still going to have to sit down and talk, because nobody between the river and the sea is going anywhere, and the only viable option is a two state solution" @israelilefty

Do you think that the recent statement from the Jordanian foreign minister, in which he said "57 Arab nations will guarantee the security of Israel on condition that it ends the occupation and agrees to an independent Palestinian state " to be a statement worthy of consideration as a prelude to sitting down to talk, or should it be dismissed outright?
I believe the former.
Thanks.

israelilefty · 09/10/2024 09:57

@Polka83 "It is interesting that you feel that the voices oversea have so much influence on shutting down pro-peace dialogue between Palestinian and Israeli voices within Israel."

That's not what I said. They don't shut down dialogue over here - they just don't support or encourage it, instead they often dismiss voices seeking complexity or hold them to unreasonable litmus tests and critique. They bolster people with intransigent views on both sides by seemingly trying to outdo actual local Israelis and Palestinians in their commitment to the ideological cause of Palestinian liberation or to a vague "Am Yisrael Chai" which both deny the need for compromise to come to a solution.

But I want to correct a really important misunderstanding in your post. You say that 7/10 did not justify the level of destruction in Gaza. Of course it doesn't. Revenge is not a legitimate justification for war, not a single death on either side is justifiable as revenge for previous wrongdoings. Self defence and the prevention of future atrocities are legitimate grounds for military action, which is assessed by international law on a case by case basis. I am not a military expert. There seems to be very significant evidence that both sides have repeatedly broken international law in this ongoing conflict, both Israel by using disproportionate means to achieve military aims and by allowing a climate of revenge among the military, and Hamas by knowingly undertaking an attack that was guaranteed to bring a heavy Israeli response, and by throwing Gazan civilians under the cart by conducting its military activities in a way that maximises civilian casualties by using civilians and civilian infrastructure as human shields for its activities, building shelters for its fighters while literally leaving the civilians above to their fate.

israelilefty · 09/10/2024 10:02

mouthpipette · 09/10/2024 09:46

"we're still going to have to sit down and talk, because nobody between the river and the sea is going anywhere, and the only viable option is a two state solution" @israelilefty

Do you think that the recent statement from the Jordanian foreign minister, in which he said "57 Arab nations will guarantee the security of Israel on condition that it ends the occupation and agrees to an independent Palestinian state " to be a statement worthy of consideration as a prelude to sitting down to talk, or should it be dismissed outright?
I believe the former.
Thanks.

Of course it's a positive statement, but I think the reason it has attracted very little attention is that Jordan is a weak player in the region and is already at peace with Israel. We don't need to sit down to talk with Jordan. Ultimately the significant players in this conflict who will determine this conflict are Iran (who arguably started this conflict via their proxies as a response to the upcoming Israeli normalisation with Saudi Arabia, which would have significantly strengthened the more liberal, US-aligned bloc in the region) - and the Israeli and Palestinian people, both of whom need collectively to decide that they are willing to make the compromises necessary to reach a lasting solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

mouthpipette · 09/10/2024 10:19

@israelilefty who wrote
"Of course it's a positive statement, but I think the reason it has attracted very little attention is that Jordan is a weak player in the region and is already at peace with Israel. * We don't need to sit down to talk with Jordan. ( I agree, but there were another 56 nations that were also involved in this statement.) *

Ultimately the significant players in this conflict who will determine this conflict are Iran (who arguably started this conflict via their proxies as a response to the upcoming Israeli normalisation with Saudi Arabia, which would have significantly strengthened the more liberal, US-aligned bloc in the region) - and the Israeli and Palestinian people, both of whom need collectively to decide that they are willing to make the compromises necessary to reach a lasting solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict." ( Again agreed. Ultimately the significant parties who will determine this conflict have to be those you list, (plus the US) but many negotiations start with third parties bringing those in conflict together.)

LetThereBeLove · 09/10/2024 10:47

Streetcred · 09/10/2024 09:02

As @israelilefty says, it is easy to be ‘pro-peace’ (by which I think you mean pro-ceasefire) as a westerner who is not on the receiving end of gun and rocket attacks.

I would assume almost everyone both in the ME and in the west wants peace, but you don’t necessary get that simply by laying down arms unfortunately. This is the reason the conflict continues.

Absolutely right. If Israel lays down its arms it stands to be eradicated. There are too many armchair westerners who think they know what's right and wrong about the conflict. Meanwhile I hope you and yours remain safe @Israelilefty Am Yisroel Chai.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2024 10:55

@israelilefty I agree with pp thanks for your insight and I understand your reasoning

Polka83 · 09/10/2024 18:21

Streetcred · 09/10/2024 09:02

As @israelilefty says, it is easy to be ‘pro-peace’ (by which I think you mean pro-ceasefire) as a westerner who is not on the receiving end of gun and rocket attacks.

I would assume almost everyone both in the ME and in the west wants peace, but you don’t necessary get that simply by laying down arms unfortunately. This is the reason the conflict continues.

There is a huge difference between laying down arms and what has happened in Gaza. No-one would argue against measures that adequately maintain safety of Israeli citizens. The iron dome has been thankfully highly effective.

7/10 was an intelligence failure made in open daylight.

Polka83 · 09/10/2024 21:36

@israelilefty
I can appreciate why you might think that voices external to Israel may enforce entrenched views within Israel.

I had to stop using X as the photos coming out of Gaza were horrific and I couldn’t keep see dead children. But I am glad I saw them - as the horror of what was happening was not being shown in mainstream media.

Do you think the world shouldn’t have seen these images from Gaza- as from what I can tell- this is what most pro-Palestinian/ peace voices are protesting. It is surprising to hear - as an outsider - that these images themselves have not supported those within Israel looking for a different more peaceful path ahead.

I agree with concerns that both sides broken international law - Hamas are scum to hide in civilian areas and did the IDF really need the US to stop using dumb bombs in civilian areas?

Limesodaagain · 09/10/2024 23:23

israelilefty · 09/10/2024 07:20

@wanderingstar23 We can differ about whether to apply the term "genocide" before the ICJ ruling while still agreeing that the destruction of civilian life and property in Gaza is shocking and appalling. This is (was) a thread about Naomi Klein's statements about the Jewish community and about Israeli discourse, not about how individual posters relate to what is happening in Gaza, Lebanon and Israel. I did send you to my other thread, but fwiw I'll restate here that I'm active on the Israeli left and I've been on the streets protesting for a ceasefire and hostage deal since early in the war. I've also protested for years against the occupation. I do what I can in my personal and professional capacities to work against war and occupation. I did not vote for this government or its politics. The war has to end. The occupation has to end. Hamas and Bibi have to go: their policies have utterly failed their peoples and led us to death and destruction. Our children deserve a world in which they can grow up safe and without fear. But I don't think that inflammatory and warped statements about Jewish and Israeli discourse like Klein's help that to happen, in the same way that I don't think that inflammatory and warped statements about Palestinians and Palestinian discourse help either.

The reason I've been on this thread is that one of the things that I have found profoundly difficult during the past year is how both "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" voices overseas have consistently amplified divisive rhetoric and have consistently dismissed and silenced those Palestinian and Israeli voices who are willing to have the conversations that might lead to something better here for all of us. I get that the word "genocide" has become a keystone for many pro-Palestinian people. But guess what. Even if the ICJ accepts that Israel has committed genocide (I'm not sure this is going to happen), or even if the entire Arab world denounces Hamas (I'm also not sure this is going to happen), we're still going to have to sit down and talk, because nobody between the river and the sea is going anywhere, and the only viable option is a two state solution. If I can walk straight out of my protected room during another siren and put on Lebanese music and think about civilians, if bereaved Palestinians and Israelis can sit down and talk, if our former education minister can talk about Israelis learning the Palestinian narrative, this can and will happen. But it will be despite rather than because of the incredibly divisive discourse promoted overseas and the utter dismissal of those acknowledging the complexity of this conflict and the complicity of many elements from both sides in prolonging it.

On a lighter note, I just got stuck in my apartment's protected room during a rocket siren with a totally random Russian building worker who happened to be outside when the siren went off. AWKWARD 😂

“The reason I've been on this thread is that one of the things that I have found profoundly difficult during the past year is how both "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" voices overseas have consistently amplified divisive rhetoric and have consistently dismissed and silenced those Palestinian and Israeli voices who are willing to have the conversations that might lead to something better here for all of us.”

Completely agree and thank you for you measured and insightful posts.

wanderingstar23 · 10/10/2024 08:12

@israelilefty I appreciate the work you are doing especially as there are extremely anti-peace forces here who claim to be acting in the name of / interests of Israel / Israelis. etc. However I don't really understand how (if I have understood correctly) you can suggest that the average pro-Palestine voice here and people like Naomi Klein are akin to polarising forces like Hamas and Netanyahu. It's just not like that. It's not in any way the same order. There are Jews in what would be described as the pro-Palestine movement here, increasing in numbers, and difficult and challenging conversations are being had. You may not like what Naomi Klein says, Liberal Zionists might not like how she says it, but she's been at it for years and is still at it, it's her way and she has a place in this movement, which is international, thank God. Because the Israeli Left wasn't strong enough alone to protect the increasingly tens of thousands of Gazans from people who would create a siege situation. And if there was a stronger Israeli Left we might not have had such a strong Hamas either (because we also know that Netanyahu had a laissez-faire policy with them because he thought it would be better not to have a united Palestine, obviously underestimating the blowback). Neither would the Israeli government be able to do what it is doing without international support. The international element to all of this is totally crucial. And in any movement there will be different kinds of people with different strategies and approaches. The fundamental issue as you point out is about being able to literally sit down and have good, humanising contact amongst Palestinians and Jews. I see this regularly within the pro-Palestine movement here, contrary to popular commentary. I am glad you are doing that in the way that works for you and the people around you.

Scirocco · 10/10/2024 08:15

Trauma has always been a weapon of war. It is one way in which governments and forces can bolster their own support and harm their enemies, with a reach far beyond the immediate battlefield.

In general...

Showing the atrocities committed against a group can be steered from "Look what they did" (bearing witness and sharing evidence) to "Look what they did TO US" (people further removed from the initial traumatic event but who are part of a related group become part of the group sharing the experience of trauma because of their association - which then consolidates support among those groups for action to keep themselves safe) to "Look what they could do TO YOU" (bringing in groups even further removed).

At the same time as bolstering a side's own support, trauma can also be deployed against the other side and groups where support for the other side might be an issue. This can be through, for example, 'shock and awe' tactics ("we can harm your demographic anywhere at anytime", or "look at our military superiority"), through direct actions designed in at least part to cause psychological distress, or through the expansion of acceptability of discrimination and hate against groups.

In modern times...

The widespread availability of communications technology means governments or groups seeking to use trauma in this way can reach further, faster, in new ways. For example, livestreaming murders, carefully constructed and edited media broadcasts, multimedia campaigns dehumanising groups, the insertion of propaganda into media platforms, the public withholding/desecration/anonymising of the bodies of deceased people (especially painful for groups where the integrity of a person's body at burial is important)...

People's trauma has always been used by governments and groups to further their own objectives.

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