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Conflict in the Middle East
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keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:01

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:23

@Limesodaagain

"I think this thread sounds very much as if you don’t care too much about the victims of the Nova festival"

And you would be 100% wrong about that.

I have been to Israel many times. I worked for an Israeli company as their country manager in Europe for 10 years. I have many Israeli friends.

Compassion for Palestinians makes absolutely no one an antisemite.

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html

TheCadoganArms · 29/06/2024 21:02

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 20:28

From the Daily Telegraph just now:

Jewish LGBT charity pulls out of Pride in London
Decision comes as leaked messages show pro-Palestinian activists planning demonstrations during parade which celebrates inclusivity

You couldn't make it up

Edited

I have just come back from Pride. Watching several blokes in glitter sequined hot pants waving assorted 'Queers for Palestine' banners and flags was somewhat ironic.

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:05

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:01

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html

Edited

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.
So support for Palestine is anti-semitic?

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:08

Did you read my post properly @dulra?
It depends on the context

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:08

TheCadoganArms · 29/06/2024 21:02

I have just come back from Pride. Watching several blokes in glitter sequined hot pants waving assorted 'Queers for Palestine' banners and flags was somewhat ironic.

somewhat ironic.
Not really, they can clearly separate solidarity with people currently suffering unimaginable pain and trauma to actually living under a terrorist regime like Hamas

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:10

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:08

Did you read my post properly @dulra?
It depends on the context

Maybe you need to explain it to me. I understood it to mean people showing support for Palestinians but not calling out the atrocities of Oct 7th are anti-semitic?

Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:11

Shutupaboutthesun · 29/06/2024 18:06

To my mind, the problem with being 'Pro-Palestine' is that the core of the Palestinian Arab political project has always been about expelling or exterminating the Jews. It is not and never has been a project centred on human rights, or about building a functioning state for themselves.

The violent racism of the Palestinian Arabs goes way back, to before the founding of Israel, with pogroms like the 1929 massacre of Hebron's Jewish community (which bore eerily similar features to the pogrom of Oct 7, including the killing of infants and the elderly, and the sexual mutilation of women).

Anti-Jewish hatred among Arabs is not an outgrowth of the military occupation in the West Bank and predates the modern state of Israel by centuries. It is hard for people who don't know much about the history of the Middle East, and the subjugation of non-Arab minorities (Jews, Samaritans, Assyrians, Yazidis, Druze, Copts) after the Arab Conquest, to understand this. To them, the Palestinian Arabs look like the underdogs, while the well-armed Jews look like the bullies. Back when I knew little about the history of the conflict and just consumed left-leaning media, I used to think this too.

But after living in Israel for a year and reading more widely, I realised that it is the other way around: the Palestinians are the primary aggressors in this conflict. You can be the weaker party and still be the aggressor. Their military and economic weakness does not deter them from continuing to start wars, because they believe that ultimately 450 million Arabs will overcome 7 million Jews. That's why the Palestinians have turned down every offer of a state made to them. They don't want a state, they want the Jews gone and Arab Muslim supremacy restored over the one tiny part of the Middle East that has thus far evaded it.

Something like 80 per cent of Palestinians support Hamas. At a conference in 2021, Hamas laid out its vision for a 'free Palestine' and outlined what would happen to Jews in it:

  1. Jews who had served in the IDF (which is most Israeli Jews) were to be killed.
  2. Jews who had not served in the IDF (basically the Ultra-Orthodox) could be merely ethnically cleansed.
  3. Jews who converted to Islam could be 'integrated into the state'.
  4. 'Educated Jews' (the scientists, doctors and engineers) were to be enslaved, not allowed to leave the new state of Palestine, but forced to work, for free, for the Arabs.

This is the vision that a supermajority of Palestinians have for a 'free Palestine': one in which Jews are either killed, ethnically cleansed, forcibly converted or enslaved. This, therefore, is what it means to be 'Pro-Palestine'. I don't understand how anybody sane could align themselves with this, but Damon Albarn and most of the British Left disagree, it seems.

You have articulated this so well. I honestly can't believe anyone who believes in democracy & women's rights etc supporting Hamas at all. Horrendous terrorist group. Bring the hostages home should surely be what people are focusing on!

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:13

Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:11

You have articulated this so well. I honestly can't believe anyone who believes in democracy & women's rights etc supporting Hamas at all. Horrendous terrorist group. Bring the hostages home should surely be what people are focusing on!

Who is supporting Hamas?

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 21:14

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 20:46

I do think it's a shame that, as far as I can see, not a single festival in the UK this summer seems to have had any actual recognition or commemoration of the Nova massacre.

I totally agree. And of course I, and any right minded sane person would have every sympathy for those innocent young people attending a festival.

I do think this.

No one noticed (at least on a wider scale eg social media, and the prominence it now has) the ongoing slaughter of Palestinians in the WB, the bulldozing of their homes and stealing of their land.

In 2023 up to 7/10, Israel shot 502 Palestinians, including 120 children. The worst year for Palestinian deaths on record.

No one noticed until Israelis lost their lives.

Only then did it become something that ordinary folks were aware of.

Of course 7/10 was an atrocity.

It also awakened the average person to the grotesque injustice the Palestinians have been living under for more than 70 years.

EasterIssland · 29/06/2024 21:15

Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:11

You have articulated this so well. I honestly can't believe anyone who believes in democracy & women's rights etc supporting Hamas at all. Horrendous terrorist group. Bring the hostages home should surely be what people are focusing on!

Bring the hostages home and stop killing innocent civilians should surely be what people are focusing on!

I corrected your sentence

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:18

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:10

Maybe you need to explain it to me. I understood it to mean people showing support for Palestinians but not calling out the atrocities of Oct 7th are anti-semitic?

It is a music festival @Dulra !
The same setting of the worst ever terrorist attack (relegated to an atrocity by some ).

Why celebrate Albarn's words at this setting when he deliberately failed to mention the genocide at Novas?

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 21:26

@keenforhelp

"Why celebrate Albarn's words at this setting when he deliberately failed to mention the genocide at Novas?"

Do you mention the genocide in Gaza alongside the genocide at Nova?

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:30

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:18

It is a music festival @Dulra !
The same setting of the worst ever terrorist attack (relegated to an atrocity by some ).

Why celebrate Albarn's words at this setting when he deliberately failed to mention the genocide at Novas?

Ok but that's not anti-semitic so rephrase it please.

You have said pretty cruel things about Palestinians in this thread so maybe you need to practise what you preach a little by acknowledging the pain and trauma on both sides

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:33

Heartwarming to see this at Glastonbury today.

Support for Palestine at Glastonbury
Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:34

Heartwarming indeed @keenforhelp

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:37

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:33

Heartwarming to see this at Glastonbury today.

It is heart warming and I'm sure you'd fail to meet many there that would disagree with its message. Many of us have enough space in our hearts to recognise and sympathise with the pain on both sides. Something I rarely see from you.

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 21:38

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:37

It is heart warming and I'm sure you'd fail to meet many there that would disagree with its message. Many of us have enough space in our hearts to recognise and sympathise with the pain on both sides. Something I rarely see from you.

"If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really?"

EasterIssland · 29/06/2024 21:43

Reasons why I think you’ll see loads of support for Palestine and artists might not speak up about Nova. Maybe because for many this didn’t start on 7-10. So whilst we are sorry for all the victims of that day, we also recognise what Israel is doing has nothing to do with self - defence but war crimes

Support for Palestine at Glastonbury
keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:44

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:30

Ok but that's not anti-semitic so rephrase it please.

You have said pretty cruel things about Palestinians in this thread so maybe you need to practise what you preach a little by acknowledging the pain and trauma on both sides

I've said NOTHING about Palestinians whatsoever .

Bizarre comment.

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:46

EasterIssland · 29/06/2024 21:43

Reasons why I think you’ll see loads of support for Palestine and artists might not speak up about Nova. Maybe because for many this didn’t start on 7-10. So whilst we are sorry for all the victims of that day, we also recognise what Israel is doing has nothing to do with self - defence but war crimes

The Palestinian governing body started this conflict.

Shutupaboutthesun · 29/06/2024 21:48

stormy4319trevor · 29/06/2024 19:17

@Shutupaboutthesun How is the expansion of settlements in the WB, encouraged by Likud, the arming of settlers, and the denial of rights to Palestinians in the WB (which is pretty much under Israeli control, if not legally Israel, helping any settlement? You may be right that some in Palestinian politics wish the eradication of Israel, though I am sure it is not all. However, the ongoing expansion of the occupation's reach and control look as if the Israeli government, and many politicians, wish the eradication of a realised Palestine. I think that decades of military force and control has done little to achieve the normal, peaceful state that I would think many Israelis wish for.

I think Netanyahu's strategy with the settlements in the West Bank was to prevent the emergence of any viable Palestinian state there. And the reason he wanted to prevent such a state was because he considered it would pose an intolerable security threat to Israel. Of course there is a fanatical minority of religious Jews who want to claim the West Bank because it's the heart of biblical Judea, but I don't think that was Netanyahu's motivation (he isn't religious). His strategy was purely pragmatic: build a whole lot of Jewish settlements there and the Palestinians will not have a base from which to attack. The West Bank is on high ground overlooking most major Israeli cities, so I can understand the logic, even while i agree that it creates a very unfair situation for the Palestinians.

It must be remembered that the Netanyahu strategy only gained favour with the Israeli public following Arafat's rejection of the offer of a Palestinian state in 2000 and the decision to launch the second intifada. It wasn't reported much in the West, but the second intifada was absolutely brutal and radicalised a lot of Israelis - they were being blown up on buses and in restaurants every week. Over a thousand civilians were killed by suicide bombers and it only stopped when the IDF reoccupied parts of the West Bank and restricted travel between the WB and Israel.

There was also the lynching in 2000, when two Israelis took a wrong turn and ended up in Ramallah, where a crowd of Palestinian civilians beat them to death and then literally tore them apart and paraded through the streets holding their internal organs aloft. This wasn't Hamas, it was ordinary Palestinians who did this. I think the period between 2000-2002 was when a lot of Israelis gave up on the idea of peace with the Palestinians.

Pre-October 7, I was very much in favour of a Palestinian state. It isn't right that one group of people should remain stateless for so long. But I also don't see how a society that is so radicalised on jihad and Jew-hatred is going to run a successful state. It seems inevitable that any Palestinian state - even one not run by Hamas - would quickly devolve into a mire of corruption and terror, which would in turn spark another war in the region.

Israel too is becoming more radicalised and now has crackpot Jewish supremacists like Ben Gvir serving in the cabinet. You are correct that the settler movement and the Israeli far right are a huge obstacle to any peaceful settlement. But they are still a minority in Israel, and my sense is that if a movement for peaceful coexistence emerged on the Palestinian side, it would get a huge positive response from the majority of Israelis. The Western left really isn't helping things by encouraging the Palestinians in their racism and irredentism and joining in their 'from the river to the sea' fantasies of finally exterminating or expelling the Jews. (BTW the Arabic version of that chant translates as 'from the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab', which makes things a little clearer, doesn't it?). No one who is seriously interested in human rights in the region should be doing anything other than promoting coexistence and sharing of the land between Arabs and Jews.

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:52

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:44

I've said NOTHING about Palestinians whatsoever .

Bizarre comment.

Kinda my point you have said NOTHING about their suffering whatsoever and have even accused people that have as being anti-semitic. I queried your cruel words already on this thread, I quoted you so you saw it but didn't respond so no it wasn't a bizarre comment.

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 22:01

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:52

Kinda my point you have said NOTHING about their suffering whatsoever and have even accused people that have as being anti-semitic. I queried your cruel words already on this thread, I quoted you so you saw it but didn't respond so no it wasn't a bizarre comment.

Even more bizarre.
Telling somebody they are cruel for querying a pop star's reasons for a certain comment.

Completely bizarre.

Dulra · 29/06/2024 22:05

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 22:01

Even more bizarre.
Telling somebody they are cruel for querying a pop star's reasons for a certain comment.

Completely bizarre.

To support Palestine is to support an unrecognised state whose stated intention is to annihilate the Jews

This is what I'm referring to. To me this quote suggests no one should be supporting Palestinians they are not deserving of our sympathy because they are not a recognised state and want to annihilate Jews. Which is a bizarre and cruel position to take in my opinion

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 22:11

Dulra · 29/06/2024 22:05

To support Palestine is to support an unrecognised state whose stated intention is to annihilate the Jews

This is what I'm referring to. To me this quote suggests no one should be supporting Palestinians they are not deserving of our sympathy because they are not a recognised state and want to annihilate Jews. Which is a bizarre and cruel position to take in my opinion

But a stat earlier in the thread stated 80% support in Palestine for annihilating Jews .

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