Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

University Students Rising Up (continued from Easterissland’s first thread)

67 replies

Finallyloggedin · 19/05/2024 18:36

@easterissland, I hope you don’t mind me starting another thread now that the first is full.

Brave students worldwide are still showing more moral fibre than the political and media classes combined.

https://x.com/amberisms_/status/1792198517479580118?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog The Morehouse Class of 2024 Valedictorian, Deangelo Fletcher, called for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza during his speech today.

x.com

https://x.com/amberisms_/status/1792198517479580118?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
threeoldbicycles · 24/05/2024 16:11

blackcherryconserve · 19/05/2024 19:19

Students rise up in every generation. In mine it was Vietnam, my daughters it was Iraq. It's a rite of passage.

Yup.

I was born too late for the "Ban the Bomb" marches but I can vaguely remember the Aldermaston Womens' Camp, and something about South Africa when I was at Uni.

Beats me how these students have time to get involved with all this extra-curricular stuff, I was too busy studying !

mactire · 24/05/2024 16:21

WatTyler · 24/05/2024 16:05

Is it really too much to ask that MN censor pro-Hamas propagandists still trying to claim Israel is engaged in genocide? This is a lie, pure and simple.

As for the infantile 'students' and their pathetic virtue signalling, it is obvious none of them has even the tiniest clue about what is actually going on in Israel.

I firmly believe Israel is engaged in genocide and that they have been intentional about their choices from the start.

Go on, off you go and report that. Be sure to call me a propagandist - how scary.

threeoldbicycles · 24/05/2024 17:27

WatTyler · 24/05/2024 16:05

Is it really too much to ask that MN censor pro-Hamas propagandists still trying to claim Israel is engaged in genocide? This is a lie, pure and simple.

As for the infantile 'students' and their pathetic virtue signalling, it is obvious none of them has even the tiniest clue about what is actually going on in Israel.

Students have just jumped on the latest virtue-signalling bandwagon.

Are these Useful Idiots aware of how much Saudi money is pumped into British Universities?
Saudi Arabia has a list of Human Rights violations as long as your arm and women have very few rights. Being gay is illegal and punishable by death.

So where is the outcry from students?

Seems like a case of "no Jews, no news".

This is behind a paywall but you get the idea
They are investing as I type https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/our-new-saudi-partnership-huge-opportunity-uk-science

Our new Saudi partnership is a huge opportunity for UK science

UK universities should leverage Saudi resources to build partnerships that will advance science and technology for mutual benefit, says Andrew Griffith

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/our-new-saudi-partnership-huge-opportunity-uk-science

DomPom47 · 25/05/2024 08:25

Well done Harvard students - future leaders in politics and variety of other fields taking a moral stand in their own way on the deaths, destruction, famine, at best apartheid system that Palestinians are facing and in my opinion a genocide that they are facing https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7WZWRIodK-/?igsh=MW8wZGdpMTlqc3ZhMw==

Politicians in the US are scared of these students so easier to try to shut them down, people are worried about the countries that want Palestine to get full statehood recognition in the UN and it’s easier to call them terrorist sympathisers and antisemitic than to try and justify what this fascist Israeli government is doing now and planning on doing in the future.

People are free to report the use of this term to mumsnet if they feel uncomfortable about the reality of what is happening.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7WZWRIodK-/?igsh=MW8wZGdpMTlqc3ZhMw==

DomPom47 · 25/05/2024 12:13

Group of Israeli protestors were arrested outside the US consulate in Jerusalem - they were asking the US to not arming the genocide
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7WnaimIUNv/?igsh=NzhtNTJmeGRrajhr

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7WnaimIUNv/?igsh=NzhtNTJmeGRrajhr

Finallyloggedin · 25/05/2024 20:26

https://x.com/toronto4p/status/1794382848239214925?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

“Professor @AyyashMohannad visited the UofT encampments yesterday. Here he talks about power, and especially what people power can do.”

x.com

https://x.com/toronto4p/status/1794382848239214925?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 25/05/2024 21:54

“Najah University in the West Bank has praised the Global Student Movement

They have highlighted its pivotal role in the liberation of nations from Colonialism and Occupation.”

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1794079265111015634?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

x.com

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1794079265111015634?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
Gunnersforthecup · 28/05/2024 09:18

17 protestors arrested in Oxford after a violent entry into University buildings,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-69060103

Awful for University staff - the reception staff were manhandled, apparently.

It will be interesting to see if all these people are actually current students.

And a very fair statement from the University.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/organisation/global-crises/university-response-israel-gaza-middle-east

Police outside an Oxford university building, stopping people from entering

Seventeen protestors arrested over University of Oxford Gaza protest

Thames Valley Police has arrested 17 people on suspicion of affray and aggravated trespass.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-69060103

Finallyloggedin · 30/05/2024 13:14

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MD9JNXeQ_FrFSeTMJweYnI9VuL-mRt75/view

Jewish faculty at Oxford have released a statement on the University's response to student protests against the genocide in Gaza:

'The characterisation of Jews as a uniform mass with a single viewpoint is itself a common and insidious antisemitic trope.'

An Open Letter from Concerned Jewish Faculty at the University of Oxford.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MD9JNXeQ_FrFSeTMJweYnI9VuL-mRt75/view

OP posts:
Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 08:29

A letter from a Scottish professor to the Edinburgh students’ association

TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.

May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain 's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field. I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.

I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .

That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.

Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I'm speaking of a hatred that
permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is
this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.

It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.

Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.

That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha'is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).

In Iran , the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why
aren't your members boycotting Iran ? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa .

Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank.

On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.

In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.

Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.

It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.

Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the
Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke?

University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.

I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations. We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.

Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya , Bahrain , Saudi Arabia , Yemen , and Iran . They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that
protects the Bahai's.... Need I go on?

The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott. I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side.

Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and
that is to protect them from one-sided argument.

They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930's (which, sadly, there was not), don't you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it?

Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence.

It's up to you to find out more.

Yours sincerely,

Denis MacEoin

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 08:36

It’s a long letter but makes a number of interesting points I think. Of course the irrefutable fact of the IDF horrific assault on the people of Gaza is not mentioned but I think he refutes some criticism of Israel successfully

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 08:44

The main point I wanted to make with the letter was that the current assault on Gaza is a terrible tragedy but some of the other accusations and language used are too extreme and inflammatory and are being used as if fact . The rhetoric is unhelpful

BelleHathor · 31/05/2024 09:05

That letter is from 2011.
https://www.thejc.com/news/dr-denis-maceoins-letter-to-the-edinburgh-university-students-association-pf63hsy2
It is interesting, though having looked up the late author it appears that he looks at it through a lens of privilege. In the nicest possible way the people that usually say that the Israeli government doesn't operate an apartheid state come from the privileged class

I find that people from countries that were subject to Colonialism are often able to see it more clearly as it is not academic for them.

Dr Denis MacEoin's letter to the Edinburgh University Students' Association

This letter was sent to the Edinburgh University Student Association in April following their vote to boycott Israel because of its 'apartheid'

https://www.thejc.com/news/dr-denis-maceoins-letter-to-the-edinburgh-university-students-association-pf63hsy2

PearlKoala · 31/05/2024 09:32

Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank.

I haven't read the whole thing but whilst scrolling past this stood out to me. You do realise that part of the reason Palestinians need to travel at all is because of Israels blockade and the detrimental impact that has on the healthcare that can be provided? The blockade caused a constant shortage of medicines and medical equipment and restricted the training that Palestinian Drs could do as they weren't free to travel. Not to mention the effects of restricted water and sanitation has on health. So Israel cause sub par medical treatment then want a pat on the back for allowing(like they have to under law as an occupying power) some not all people to travel to Israel for treatment. Does that not seem wrong to you that the author of this letter completely omits that information?

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 09:36

PearlKoala · 31/05/2024 09:32

Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank.

I haven't read the whole thing but whilst scrolling past this stood out to me. You do realise that part of the reason Palestinians need to travel at all is because of Israels blockade and the detrimental impact that has on the healthcare that can be provided? The blockade caused a constant shortage of medicines and medical equipment and restricted the training that Palestinian Drs could do as they weren't free to travel. Not to mention the effects of restricted water and sanitation has on health. So Israel cause sub par medical treatment then want a pat on the back for allowing(like they have to under law as an occupying power) some not all people to travel to Israel for treatment. Does that not seem wrong to you that the author of this letter completely omits that information?

Edited

Yes - I’m not as knowledgeable as some posters on here . I just post the letter because I thought it did make some worthwhile points . But it is perhaps too out of date to be of value in the debate. Apologies if so

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 09:40

BelleHathor · 31/05/2024 09:05

That letter is from 2011.
https://www.thejc.com/news/dr-denis-maceoins-letter-to-the-edinburgh-university-students-association-pf63hsy2
It is interesting, though having looked up the late author it appears that he looks at it through a lens of privilege. In the nicest possible way the people that usually say that the Israeli government doesn't operate an apartheid state come from the privileged class

I find that people from countries that were subject to Colonialism are often able to see it more clearly as it is not academic for them.

Yes - rather out of date. But some of the same accusations remain. Probably too out of date though. Not worth posting. Apologies. And I take your point about looking at things through the lens of privilege- although I would counter that with the fact that most of the students who are protesting are also privileged.

PearlKoala · 31/05/2024 09:52

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 09:36

Yes - I’m not as knowledgeable as some posters on here . I just post the letter because I thought it did make some worthwhile points . But it is perhaps too out of date to be of value in the debate. Apologies if so

It's not even that it is out of date, when the letter was written Israel were restricting medicines/medical equipment/training etc it's that the author chooses to ignore that and instead paint it as a charitable act that Israel treats some of the patients that they prevent from getting treatment at home. I mean it's great that they don't let everyone that needs treatment die and that they allow some to travel but it would be far better if they allowed them the comfort and dignity of being treated at home rather than the stress of having to apply for visas, travel away from family and receive treatment alone in Israel. Very sick children have been forced to travel to Israel alone for treatment as visas are often denied to their parents(43% of the time in 2018 for instance). Not to mention the need to wait for permits significantly reduces their health outcomes.

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 09:57

PearlKoala · 31/05/2024 09:52

It's not even that it is out of date, when the letter was written Israel were restricting medicines/medical equipment/training etc it's that the author chooses to ignore that and instead paint it as a charitable act that Israel treats some of the patients that they prevent from getting treatment at home. I mean it's great that they don't let everyone that needs treatment die and that they allow some to travel but it would be far better if they allowed them the comfort and dignity of being treated at home rather than the stress of having to apply for visas, travel away from family and receive treatment alone in Israel. Very sick children have been forced to travel to Israel alone for treatment as visas are often denied to their parents(43% of the time in 2018 for instance). Not to mention the need to wait for permits significantly reduces their health outcomes.

Yes - thank you for the extra explanation.

BelleHathor · 31/05/2024 10:08

Limesodaagain · 31/05/2024 09:40

Yes - rather out of date. But some of the same accusations remain. Probably too out of date though. Not worth posting. Apologies. And I take your point about looking at things through the lens of privilege- although I would counter that with the fact that most of the students who are protesting are also privileged.

Don't apologize Limesodaagain, We are all learning and you are always a very fair poster and I enjoy reading your posts. It's good to read about things from a different perspective!

DomPom47 · 31/05/2024 15:09

B’tselem an Israeli Human Rights organisation explains why apartheid describes the plight of Palestinians

https://m.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

YourPithyLilacSheep · 03/06/2024 07:00

Well done Harvard students - future leaders in politics and variety of other fields taking a moral stand in their own way on the deaths, destruction, famine, at best apartheid system that Palestinians are facing and in my opinion a genocide that they are facing

Interesting that none of them are brave enough or taking a moral stand against the Jew-hatred of the murderous Hamas terrorist organisation.

Gunnersforthecup · 03/06/2024 18:29

DomPom47 · 03/06/2024 05:36

Two differing opinions in the Guardin. I view Ilan Pappé’d stance as much stronger than Flora Cassen’s: Should academic institutions boycott Israel? Two scholars debateFlora Cassen and Ilan Pappé

I very much prefer Flora Cassen's stance. But then I believe in open discussion, in hearing both sides of the argument, in encouraging university students to think for themselves and make their own minds up.

There didn't seem to be much of an argument or much original thought in Pappe's piece.

OP posts: