Rafah bombings (Edited by Mumsnet)

[TwilightSkies]

Where the hell are all the Palestinians meant to go now?
They were TOLD to go to Rafah, that Rafah was a safe place.
It’s just open extermination at this point.

@Efacsen ,

Netanyahu and his reliance on religious extremists is a massive problem. And he won’t boot them for fear of ending up in jail.

I hope a condition of the U.S continued support for Israel is no racists as ministers.

It is a problem with PR or any coalition government, making deals with unsavoury characters, but particularly so in wartime.

Thank you for that

This sentence has really gotten to me this morning.

‘Mothers feel the same about their babies the world over.’

@Newbutoldfather It is a problem with PR or any coalition government, making deals with unsavoury characters, but particularly so in wartime.

it didn't take long for one of Netanyahus unsavoury characters to prove your point. This was Ben Gvir's reaction to president Biden openly saying the US will not provide bombs to Israel if they attack Rafah

Yes it is a massive problem in Israel. It's not correct to say it's a problem in any coalition or in PR systems generally though. Most countries manage to form coalitions that don't involve genocidal religious fundamentalists.

Biden on CNN last night clarifying what arms US will provide to Israel in the event of a full scale invasion

US still committed to Israel’s security: President Biden

Biden said the United States is still committed to Israel’s defence and would supply Iron Dome rocket interceptors and other defensive weaponry.

But if Israel goes into Rafah, “we’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells used”.

Yesterday afternoon Israeli sources were saying it was no big deal but seem to have somewhat changed their tune this morning

''Israel’s former head of defence production and procurement on Thursday rejected the claim the country could manage without US arms, saying Israel would be forced to source arms elsewhere, reports Reuters citing Israeli public radio.''

Seeing a picture of a dead baby with half their body blown off was an obscene way to start the day. Thanks Israel.

Given that this 'limited and precise' military action in Rafah has been so devastating - virtually all humanitarian aid currently blocked/effective healthcare more or less brought to an end/tens thousands of people displaced again

How bad does it have to get before Biden's conditioning of military aid kicks in if it's not a 'full scale invasion'?

That poor baby. It was horrific. About the same size in length as my 6 month old. Born after this latest onslaught.

Israel is blood thirsty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68980820

I was shocked to read that Israel dropped so many 2,000 lb bombs in the early days of the war, I have to admit. I am glad that the U.S have stopped their delivery to Israel.

This is a good report detailing what Israel dropped and comparing it to similar U.S campaigns (they dropped one in the entire anti ISIS campaign).

Israel claim they were using them as ‘bunker busters’ but I am dubious. There are far better and more precise bombs to use against bunkers.

https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html

I have always believed, and still do, that the removal of Hamas is necessary for both Israel and, in the long run, the Palestinians and this does imply that the leaders can’t just shelter in Rafah (and Qatar) and live to fight another day. However, I think Israel has scored a massive own goal in how it has conducted this campaign, being at the same time both cruel and inefficient.

Also, re the large bombs, the wartime blitz on London involved 700 tons of high explosives. It looks like Israel has dropped about the same amount on Gaza and most of Hamas leadership are still alive…

Thank you, @Newbutoldfather .

The casualty numbers and destruction of homes are similar too
Between Sept. 1940 and May 1941, the city of London was attacked by Germany in 71 different air raids, 57 of those being on consecutive nights.

• Overall, German bombers dropped 711 tons of high explosive
• 2,393 incendiaries were also dropped on London
• Black Saturday alone left 430 dead and 1,600 injured
• More than one million houses were destroyed or damaged
• More than 40,000 civilians were killed
• Dozens of parachute bombs destroyed London streets

Although London had a population of 8.9million in 1940 compared to Gaza’s 2.3million, so the devastation of 40,000 dead and over a million homes gone is proportionally 4x greater. Too Londoners were not trapped, they could and did evacuate children and many adults left too.

I think of the impact of the Blitz on our national psyche even today- 84yrs later and wonder about the impact of this war on Gaza on the psyche of Gazans and Palestinians.

Has anyone else noticed a shift in the live reporting from Gaza and West Bank?

The reporters started out saying their name, Al Jazeera, town (Rafah, Khan Younis, etc), Gaza Strip or town name, West Bank but now it is name, Al Jazeera, town, and then Palestine. Ie “Rafah, Palestine”

It started to shift around three weeks ago, and now they are all saying “Palestine”

It is like the war as reunified Gazan and West Bank Palestinians.

@SummerFeverVenice a few weeks ago it became noticeable that Governments, the US in particular, stopped using the word Palestine and instead referred to the Palestinian people.
I guess it is a gently subversive way to bring the word Palestine back into use.

Interesting! I did not notice that but I’m going back through a few tabbed news reports I see that shift too.

@Newbutoldfather The bombs used seem, as you say, to have been unnecessarily destructive and not efficient. A while ago I was reading about the US fighting the Viet Cong, who used tunnels. It seems like, in the end, the US had to train for tunnel warfare and go in, because no other approach worked. I have sometimes wondered if a very cautious, targeted ground operation might have been less awful and more effective from the start.

I know that in terms of the rival political factions within Palestine they have been communicating and coordinating a plan for when there is a ceasefire, as facilitated and advised by certain BRICS countries. They realised that part of why there has never been a solution was due to the infighting and discord which just benefited the occupation.

I think Piers Morgan has been reading this thread.

I think it would have as that is how ISIS were defeated during the Battle for Mosul with a fraction of the civilian casualties thus far in Gaza.

Iraqi or coalition forces were responsible for at least 3,200 civilian deaths from airstrikes, artillery fire or mortar rounds between October 2016 and the fall of the Islamic State group in July 2017, according to an Associated Press investigation that cross-referenced independent databases from non-governmental organizations.

Of the nearly 10,000 deaths, around a third of the casualties died in bombardments by the U.S.-led coalition or Iraqi forces, the AP analysis found.

Another third of the dead civilians were killed by ISIS in the group’s final frenzy of violence.

And it could not be determined which side was responsible for the deaths of the remainder, who were cowering in neighbourhoods battered by coalition airstrikes, ISIS explosives and mortar rounds from all sides.

True, and the Palestinian Authority had to disown Hamas. The moderates had to cut off the extremist terrorists and that meant cutting Gaza and Gazans off in a lot of ways.

Absolutely, it's classic divide and rule.

The PA has to behave otherwise it loses the small concessions that it has, remember the fuss when Smotrich? stopped the PA from receiving taxes collected from Palestinians to pay civil servants.

Again it's also due to Western interference and actions taken by George W. Bushes government after Hamas unexpectedly won the election in 2006. It's a long read but shows how America helped to cement the division:

https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2008/4/the-gaza-bombshell

@stormy4319trevor ,

’The bombs used seem, as you say, to have been unnecessarily destructive and not efficient. A while ago I was reading about the US fighting the Viet Cong, who used tunnels. It seems like, in the end, the US had to train for tunnel warfare and go in, because no other approach worked. I have sometimes wondered if a very cautious, targeted ground operation might have been less awful and more effective from the start.’

I tend to agree with this.

General Petraeus wrote a very good article (I might have already linked up above) about how he changed the Iraq war by understanding that you have to ‘separate’ the civilians from the terrorists by putting them (the civilians) in safe gated communities and supplying their needs, so the terrorists can’t continually intermingle with the community.

And you have to go into the tunnels (as you said).

But he also said that it takes manpower, time and money.

Israel seem to have tried to do this on the cheap without risking (many) of their own soldiers and by using overly high powered explosives which still probably did nothing to the deep concrete-reinforced tunnels but killed a lot of civilians and probably helped another generation of terrorists come into existence.

Unless they rapidly change course this will be the ultimate in pyrrhic victories.