So which party is scuppering the ceasefire?

[Itoosurvive]

Excellent article in the FT outlining what the stumbling blocks are.
Interesting reading. Haven't seen this much detail elsewhere.

https://www.ft.com/content/89d1168e-764f-4900-8fa8-42007b49082f

I'm pretty sure the civilians, including children, who were rounded up and imprisoned for years without trial by Israeli forces found the experience deeply traumatic too.

Also, regarding Israel's belief that someone is guilty of some sort of criminal activity isn't a very high burden of proof, is it. These are the people who assume any man in Gaza is a member of Hamas so they're hardly discerning or trustworthy in that regard.

A 6 year old child who was shot was described by news reporters as a 'woman who died' will you now describe 6 year olds as women?

Do better, and only use that language if you agree with it, the wording used by the media since all of this started has been appalling and the double standards are clear.

Truthfully how are one of those groups prisoners and the other hostages, they're both being held under horrific conditions with no end in sight

“The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see.”
I think this says it all really.
this information isn’t hard to find either but some people like to turn a blind eye no matter how much evidence is thrown at them. You just prove what all those protesters are saying which is that some of you don’t believe a Palestinian life is worth much.

@Dulra

Outside my work - I totally understand peaceful protest, but we've had them running at cars / spitting on people / shouting at us etc. They've even started filming people going to work which is actually really intimidating. It's got quite stressful, sometimes we know protests are planned so we can avoid them but other times we're unable to, the police are really helpful as are security, but it can still be hours until they're moved on and it's safe to leave / enter work.

Sorry to bore you but maybe it would be more effective to explain how I have taken your post up wrong? I've reread it and I can't see how I've taken you up wrong. I see other posters have also taken it the way I have so maybe you were not clear enough in your post

I wouldn't describe any of that activity as protesting it is intimidating, criminal, antisocial mob behaviour. Where is this happening?

Among those Hamas is trying to get released are some serious criminals.
Abdullah Barghouti, responsible for planning the 2003 Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing in Jerusalem that killed 16 people including 7 children and a pregnant woman, the Café Moment suicide bombing in 2002 that killed 11, the 2002 Hebrew University bombing that killed 9. He was convicted & given 67 life sentences. Others involved in these attacks were also convicted & Hamas seeks their release.

Abbas Al-Sayed, who planned the 2002 Park Hotel suicide bombing in Netanya which killed 30 mostly elderly Israelis celebrating Passover and injured 140, also convicted & sentenced.

Just 2 among many. The nature of these attacks is a reminder of what Israel faces on a regular basis - terrorist attacks in the form of bomb attacks, suicide attacks, stabbings and rock throwing. No 'liberal democracy' as someone said has to deal with this on a regular basis. The nature of the way Hamas grooms its population is that teenagers are involved in these sorts of activities - what sort of regime sends teenagers out to do its dirty work?

And lets not forget that the PA & Hamas pay ordinary people in exchange for these acts of terrorism, including families of prisoners.

Of course there are people who shouldnt be detained, who are treated badly in detention & who should be released. This is a hellish situation because it is an ongoing war situation. In any country in the world, after an attack like October 7th people would be detained under less than perfect legal conditions. But it is weird how Israel is always held to some sort of gold standard on everything while Palestinians are pitched as innocent victims in all circumstances.

So the idea that the Palestinian prisoners are 'hostages' is a complete misunderstanding & the complete imbalance in offering up these people for ONE entirely innocent civilian Israeli hostage is striking.

@SharonEllis and do you know if Israel is agreeing to release them? Just because Hamas wants them out doesn't mean that will happen. I would agree convicted dangerous criminals shouldn't be released and it will most likely be some of the thousands, particularly minors, being held without conviction.

In saying that in the NI peace process there were terrorists from both sides released under the peace deal.

So the idea that the Palestinian prisoners are 'hostages' is a complete misunderstanding
People are referring to those held without charge in Israeli prisons and the definition of hostage would come close to that situation. Why is Israel detaining them? And on what grounds? Some of these people have died in custody, where is the investigation into how they died? Where are their human rights? These are all massive issues which have to be dealt with if trust can ever happen.

& the complete imbalance in offering up these people for ONE entirely innocent civilian Israeli hostage is striking.
Is it an imbalance? First of all there are thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli prisons without charge and 138 hostages held. Secondly over 40,000 Gazans have been killed, 2 million displaced and the population on the brink of famine. Gaza has been flattened and the UN estimate it will take to 2040 to rebuild. But yes a complete imbalance in favour of Gaza

@Dulra are you aware that administrative detention is entirely legal under international law in the sort of circumstances that Israel finds itself in after oct 7 and in the face of the sort of terrorism I outlined above prior to oct 7? While there are undoubtedly cases that cross the line many do not. How would you manage teenage terrorists attacking you? Its a difficult question isn't it? As ever you cherry picked my post! And as I ever I need to remind you that the hostages are entirely innocent civilians. No grey areas. Why does Hamas not release them? What possible justification is there for keeping them?

Other countries do not negotiate in this way with terrorists and are not expected to do so.

They do and they have, quick google will show you that. Northern Ireland is one example.
What's your solution if they don't negotiate a ceasefire with Hamas?

I am not cherry picking your posts I am responding to the parts I don't agree with just like you do with me.

I am well aware of administration detention and there is no evidence that many of those held are terrorists. Maggie Thatcher tried internship during the troubles it was a complete disaster and led to the hunger strikes doing nothing but fueling the flames of dissent.

How would you manage teenage terrorists attacking you?
But there is no evidence that many of those held are terrorists. Often their age and gender is the only factor considered when they're arrested.

Negotiating with Hamas I am sure is a pretty horrible position to be in but it is the only avenue to peace. I think it is quite telling that you are picking holes in the ceasefire negotiations, do you want them to fail? what alternative option do you have to bring an end to the current conflict? Because unless ceasefire negotiations succeed the hostages will never be freed and Gazans will continue to die from bombings and starvation

I'm not picking holes in the process any way as I'm not party to the details. No idea what makes you think I would want the negotiations to fail - its a weird take and irrelevant to the substance of the discussion. But for the record, if it helps, I hope very much that there is a ceasefire based on a fair settlement that will involve tough decisions and hard concessions on all sides.

The Uk govt did not engage as equals - Israel is being asked to engage as an equal and that is not the same. Also in the case of the UK no-one was calling for the UK to cease to exist.

So if they don't negotiate with Hamas what are their options?
Like it or not Hamas are the governing body in Gaza there is no one else there to negotiate with

Its quite extraordinary that Israel feel forced to release so many prisoners (ie people that they at least believe are guilty of some sort of criminal activity) in exchange for ONE hostage (ie entirely innocent civilians who were captured in deeply traumatic circumstances).
@SharonEllis I would call this picking holes in the process.

Negotiating with a group that are not a legitimate who basically don't want a sovereign state to exist is an impossible situation.

What's the alternative then?

Get rid of Hamas and negotiate with someone else. We are always told the Palestinian people don't support the dictatorial islamist death cult that is Hamas so it would surely be wrong to say they should be the voice of the Palestinian people at the negotiating table.

Get rid of Hamas and negotiate with someone else.
Who? Hamas are the ones holding the hostages so the only people Israel can negotiate their release with!

Given the pretty much absolute collapse of social infrastructure and organisations in Gaza (due to a rather effective campaign of destruction), and the lack of any pre-existing alternative government in Gaza (partly due to the blockade and isolation of Gaza, as well as the reported funding of Hamas by certain external powers who considered them the preferred option...), who would you suggest gets rid of Hamas and then negotiates?

We are always told that Israelis don't support the facist, racist government that they have, so surely the same applies there too? Do you think Netanyahu is the voice of Israelis? A ceasefire needs to have been done months ago, there isn't time to find the voice of Israelis or Palestinians.

Israel is a democracy so the government is legitimate - as in the Uk not everyone will agree with the government, nevertheless they are legitimate.

Personally I don't see s ceasefire happening with so few hostages being released. We need ALL the people taken by Hamas to Gaza to be released NOW. The number is between 100 and 130 I believe.

And if that government is no longer fit for purpose due to its actions and inactions, presumably there are mechanisms which could be used to remove it and prevent it going further down a path which goes against the will of the electorate.

Mechanisms which have not been used thus far.

People in Gaza have no such options. Are you seriously suggesting that a starving, traumatised and displaced civilian population with no resources is feasibly going to overpower a military force, while rescuing and safeguarding hostages taken by that force, then rescue any hostages remaining elsewhere, then form a viable leadership and negotiating team, all while continuing to be bombed, shot and starved?

Pretty much nobody likes Hamas. But negotiating with them is realistically the only way to achieve a ceasefire and safe return of hostages. Sometimes you have to sit down and negotiate, because the alternative is worse.