To be worried about the effects on British society of the conflict in Gaza

[mids2019]

Everyone is aware of the conflict in Gaza and we are delivered information on a daily basis through a range of online media.

I personally think there is an immense human tragedy here and the reporting on the whole is responsible. However I think we must realise in reality we fundamentally can't change the actions of foreign states but governments when appropriate can exert diplomatic pressure. Ultimately the US is the biggest geopolitical player when it comes to Israel.

I do think we have to be conscious of effects within or society in the UK about the prolonged deep feeling about this conflict including rising anti semitism and Islamaohibia. I feel it is very important to maintain community relations within a diverse country and I fear the polarisation brought in some parts of so sorry brought on by the Gaza conflict has a direct and maybe permanent impact on the community ties that bind us in the UK.

I think we have to remember we are all citizens of the UK and we live in a democratic state whose aim on an international level is to act on our interests forging alliances with friends and allies in the world. Israel is an ally of the UK and independent of the current crisis we will have trade and military ties with this partner state.

We have a record of welcoming historically welcoming both Jews and people from majority Muslim countries into the country and I would hate to think that the inflamed feeling about a foreign war leads to permanent division in the UK.

I feel we polarize society into 'Pro palestine' and 'pro Israel' at some level of our identities and these divisions may become permanent given the length and intracractibility of the conflict.

What can be done to make everyone feel safe in this country as far as possible and bond us in terms of being UK citizens in a global community?

I agree, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the Pope express some concern for them.

I also wonder what is happening in the Armenian community in Jerusalem.

The last time the Christian Armenians hit the headlines, they were being massacred by Muslim Azerbaijan, weren’t they? Ethnically cleansed out of Nagorno-Karabakh?
Those that survived the concentration camps, forced conversion and genocide instigated by the Ottoman Empire during WW1.

@mids2019 ...but the current Israeli government and IDF leadership have literally said that they want to destroy Gaza and prevent any Palestinian state, and are actively approving more illegal 'settlements' in the West Bank?

Now this is what I get confused about. So we start talking about an increasingly divided society which we all more or less agree on and ways in which we can create more cohesive communities, but then the OP reveals she is pro-Israel and it's back to more arguing and sniping. Why can we not get to the part where we agree to disagree? Where we can accept that people see things in different ways and hold different beliefs? That we might not like another person's viewpoint but it's still valid? We are not each others enemy.

If only @BerryMess OP clearly has her stance on this issue and it's just another Muslim smearing campaign, so many of which pop up on MN. OP knew exactly what this thread would cause.

Yes, we all hold different beliefs. However, for me personally, witnessing death and destruction at the hands of the terrorist Israeli government and funded by our leaders, leaves me with very little empathy for the supporters of this genocide in the name of Israel defending herself.

So there can be no movement then and ultimately how well we get on with our neighbour is determined by their pro Israel or pro Palestine stance? And where does that leave those who are neutral or are more concerned with events closer to home; are they friends or foes? I know this is a passionate contentious issue for many, but honestly a lot of people right now are trying to feed their kids or worrying about how they're going to pay the gas bill this month! I think my point being, surely we have to respect that the people living around us may have polar opposite opinions on the conflict or may have no strong opinion at all, but we can still find common ground surely for the sake of cohesive relations? I might not like the Tory party but it doesn't mean I automatically dislike Tory voters!

@BerryMess I don't dislike people for having different views. I do have concerns about bad faith efforts to smear a minority group by not very subtly placing all blame and responsibility at their feet.

I find common ground with people everyday of my life. I work, I have children, I have a life that involves people (friends and family) who don't subscribe to the same belief system as me. We get on absolutely fine. Our views may be polar opposite on some things and in agreement on others. However, we're civil and can agree to disagree. I can discuss my views on Palestine and not face a barrage of abuse. The internet seems to unleash all the monsters though. I bet half the people on this post would never spew their toxicity in real life.

Thank you both. I think the way we're talking now is the route to harmony. We're listening to each other for starters! It's heartening to hear.

@BerryMess

Thank you for an excellent post.

I completely agree with you and I fear that such polarisation and entrenchment of views has become a permanent shift in societal attitudes which in turn has a really negative impact on freedom of speech and democracy.

It goes beyond Gaza and indeed we first started seeing such polarised views in the aftermath of Brexit. There was similar divisions over the Covid measures with one side being accused as anti vax granny killers and the other side Govt sheep. And to a lesser degree we also have such divisions on just stop oil and Ukraine.

IMO it is in large part due to internet debate which firstly encourages people to make views anonymously which they would never due in real life. Secondly it allows similar views to congregate in an echo chamber creating even greater polarisation. Thirdly if you represent an opposing opinion then you must be an evil person and insulted as a terrorist supporter or genocide apologist etc. Fourthly it doesn't take much to transfer online hate into real life hate crimes whether that be anti Islamic or anti Jewish or murdering Brexit opposing MPs or setting fire to MPs constituency offices.

And whilst we can all agree that a divided society is harmful, the argument from Side A is that this is all the fault of Side B, and if only Side B conceded that Side A was right and they were wrong then there would be no such division.

I mean you only have to look at the post from @PinkTeaForMe to see a clear example of this. Because the OP declaring part way through her pro Israeli stance that in turn meant that her post was really a Muslim smearing campaign, with a chilling add "of which there are many" in order to conjure up some kind of conspiracy theory angle.

Although no doubt she will be along to respond that I must be some kind of fascist, apartheid, genocide supporter or whatever current buzzword for even pointing this out.

I think as listening to the radio the other day and they said that despite what media would have you believe most people are not polarised in their opinion. More than 70% had sympathies with both sides or didn’t know which side they would support.

I’m on a fence post as well it’s a awful long-standing conflict. There aren’t any easy answers.

@Elephantswillnever

"More than 70% had sympathies with both sides or didn’t know which side they would support."

On the topic of Gaza I would agree with that and for those 70% they are probably more concerned about cost of living crisis, NHS, taxation etc than a conflict thousands of miles away.

However of the 30% that do have a view they would have quite a polarised view. Plus whilst the 70% might be sitting on the fence on Gaza they might bitterly divided on another topic such as Brexit or next election or whatever.

I do think though that it has a lot to do with internet debate where people are happy to express views anonymously that they would never say in real life.

Yes to @BerryMess ’s post.

As a non-religious person who is racially Jewish (Ashkenazi)and culturally Jewish, of course I ‘support’ Israel, but this support is not unconditional and, right now, I think Israel’s actions suggest that maybe Israel has reached a tipping point, and not in a good way.

As much as I support Israel’s right to exist, I also support the rights of the Palestinians to lead a dignified life in a land they can call their own and realise their aspirations.

I am not pro Israel and pro Palestine and how this conflict plays out will determine what I feel going forwards. I really hope that out of the ashes, both sides will pull back from extreme positions and find a way to live together harmoniously.

As for the UK, I have not found the Muslims that I know judge me worse for being Jewish (or vice versa). We do tend to avoid discussing the current conflict. The internet trading videos of atrocities is an awful thing and only encourages conflict among the young and ignorant.

@1dayatatime there is no conspiracy. Just everyday lived experience of anti islamic rhetoric in this country. And I mean daily. Until you've lived it you can't fully appreciate it. Calling it out labels me a problem on this thread.

Which takes us back to the original tone of the post - to silence those that are opposed to genocide.

I absolutely agree that we have to conscious the majority of the population have higher priorities currently and for many there is sympathy for both sides of the conflict.

I openly admit supporting Israel if it means supporting a states right to self defence, a state's right to exist and a concern about demonisation of a whole population through extreme rhetoric.

However in parallel you can have concerns about this conflict is escalating including civilian death rate in Gaza.

I think my initial post was concern about the long term impacts on UK society as it seems we have an intractible conflict in the middle east which I fear finds mirrors here.

I suppose in any meaningful debate to find common ground between communities it is important to understand another's perspective but if you are to state support for Israel's right to defend itself or Britain's continued support for a nation it has historical relationships with then you are labelled a 'genocide supporter' that is unhelpful.

IThise with nuanced or no string feelings about this conflict are not complicit in war crimes for example.

The 2017 charter doesn’t repudiate the earlier one. And there are many statements by senior Hamas officials before and after 2017 that talk about obliterating Israel, and therefore Jews.

Israel, understandably, regards Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran (which funds and directs antisemitic terrorism, as well as oppressing its own people) as existential threats.

Some protesters in this country are vocally in support of the Houthis. There’s another avowedly antisemitic group.

@mids2019 ,

But where would your threshold lie?

Would you continue to support Britain’s support for Israel whatever they did? What if the civilian casualties doubled or tripled or if Israel refused the Gazans ever to return north of the East West ‘road’ that they have built?

I don’t think that the Israeli government should believe they have a God-given right to the diaspora’s support.

I said a while back on here that the Israeli Govt's actions were endangering all of us and increasing our security risks. The British Govt support of Israel affects all of us and the vast majority of British people polled do not support Israeli actions in Gaza.

In this leaked information not only does it appear UK Govt lawyers are saying Israel is breaking International Humanitarian law which has implications for the UK, Alicia Kearns also states "It (Israel's actions) is making our (UK)long term security less certain. I'm amazed our national threat level has not gone up"

@mids2019 I am not really sure what you asking me to do, ignore it? and do you really think people shouldn't be concerned about this or questioning the UK support of Israel. The people I work/mix with don't talk about religion, they just say WTF are we (UK) doing supporting this. Simple as that.
UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

The only way to minimise the effects on British society is for the UK to take a neutral stance in the conflict. That means stopping all political and military support for Israel and especially selling arms to Israel.
Then concentrate on entirely humanitarian efforts.

@Newbutoldfather

Good question. I don't think it has escaped anyone's notice that the international community is expressing increasing concerns about the death toll in Gaza

However we have to bear in mind Hamas is a group that has avowed the destruction of Israel and even though there is current frustration from some quarters about Israel there is absolutely no question that the US and UK will support the existence of Israel as a state.

Therefore diplomatically and strategically the situation in the middle east is complex and there are no easy answers

I suppose my thoughts lie closer to home and how rhetoric about his heated conflict impacts our communities especially as the internet has added a new dimension to our public discourse

For instance the use of the word 'genocide" is a charged one as there is no current judgment against Israel and certainly a lot of the international community rejects such a definition in entirety

The emotive nature of the word does charge emotion against Israel and by extension unfortunately diaspora of the Jewish community Given the strong connections of Jews in the UK to Israel is it entirely sensible to have terms like 'terror state' hurled at it?

Luckily there is a legal definition of genocide and actions taken or not taken by the Israeli govt /IDF can be proven.

The ICJ did not dismiss the case and did produce a judgement that Israel needs to allow humanitarian assistance which it is currently not doing (having killed 7 aid workers yesterday for an unknown reason).

Church communities here have been collecting for a specific Palestinian Christian charity that supports orphaned children of any faith. I don’t think it is being highlighted because, quite frankly, they are all in the same boat - Muslim or Christian- they are Palestinian and they are suffering the same fate 😣

@Tardigrade001

But wouldn't a neutral stance mean stopping all political and military support for Israel selling arms to Israel. But also stopping all humanitarian assistance as well such as air drops etc?