To be worried about the effects on British society of the conflict in Gaza

[mids2019]

Everyone is aware of the conflict in Gaza and we are delivered information on a daily basis through a range of online media.

I personally think there is an immense human tragedy here and the reporting on the whole is responsible. However I think we must realise in reality we fundamentally can't change the actions of foreign states but governments when appropriate can exert diplomatic pressure. Ultimately the US is the biggest geopolitical player when it comes to Israel.

I do think we have to be conscious of effects within or society in the UK about the prolonged deep feeling about this conflict including rising anti semitism and Islamaohibia. I feel it is very important to maintain community relations within a diverse country and I fear the polarisation brought in some parts of so sorry brought on by the Gaza conflict has a direct and maybe permanent impact on the community ties that bind us in the UK.

I think we have to remember we are all citizens of the UK and we live in a democratic state whose aim on an international level is to act on our interests forging alliances with friends and allies in the world. Israel is an ally of the UK and independent of the current crisis we will have trade and military ties with this partner state.

We have a record of welcoming historically welcoming both Jews and people from majority Muslim countries into the country and I would hate to think that the inflamed feeling about a foreign war leads to permanent division in the UK.

I feel we polarize society into 'Pro palestine' and 'pro Israel' at some level of our identities and these divisions may become permanent given the length and intracractibility of the conflict.

What can be done to make everyone feel safe in this country as far as possible and bond us in terms of being UK citizens in a global community?

"By having a continued focus on Gaza we could exacerbate tensions in our own communities "
I think ignoring what is happening in Gaza would be much more damaging . You can’t sweep things under the carpet.

I know I have argued elsewhere that we should keep the debate of the conflict out of schools but I don’t apply the same argument to society as a whole. Obviously we need to continue our focus in Gaza. It is a terrible situation and the consequences will be profound and dire .

I think it's really important that we have a problem with inhumane treatment of human beings elsewhere in the world, regardless of what that will mean for our society. If we didn't, it would be an indication that our society has lost its soul and moral compass which would be far more concerning than anything else that could happen to it. I think it's important for the Israeli government to consider what it can ask its allies to stomach morally and avoid becoming isolated as a result of caring out a genocide. No country can commit war crimes without penalty.

Why should we not discuss this in schools?
Surely only if we didn’t discuss any conflicts in schools.
Raise a generation of children who think anything happening outside of the U.K. doesn’t concern them?

There’s been a discussion on another thread about this

Yougov has polling on this. When asked about who their sympathies lie with over 50% say “don’t know” or “neither”, 19% with Israelis and 27% with Palestinians. The level of reporting is not really in line with the majority view on this.

Personally I think it needs to end, it’s gone too far and the human consequences are too much to bear. But the idea that the actual UK population is really galvanised by this is probably inaccurate.

That is frightening

It’s banned in my DD’s school and for good reason, you don’t know what peoples heritage is and can make an environment feel unsafe for some children.

Sadly, my impression is that this thread has not been created in good faith. A couple of initial posts with some goady language and thinly veiled Islamophobia, then off. There are several of these threads now, all presenting initially as seeking peace and cohesion, but actually seeking for Gaza, Palestine, Muslims and people concerned about the actions of Israel, to just all be quiet, stop complaining and comply.

@IfIwasrude the dominant West have almost relished demonstrating that they don’t have a moral compass. I’ve questioned whether friends and colleagues have a moral compass outside our borders. It’s been a terrifying 6 months seeing how complicit or silent people can be. It explains how dreadful things happen.

I’m happy for social order to disrupt briefly if it means we make a stand against genocide and show our disgust at the ideology and behaviour of the Israeli government. Share it on the news, quote their sick words on every newspaper, show the images of dead child after dead child. Wake everyone up to what they’re doing.

I think the problem is with the reasonable concern and campaigning which is absolutely valid and a democratic right has come other things.

Very few people want swastikas on the streets of the UK.

I agree with you op. I try not to talk much about the actual conflict both on here and in real life for many reasons. I try to stick to the effect it is having on people in this country. I find it very worrying.

Totally agree I said as much in my post on the previous page

I absolutely agree that no reasonable person should want pro-Nazi symbols on the streets.

My concern is with the intention behind the thread, based on my past experience of these threads.

I, and many other people like me, should have just as much right to live free from hate and casual discrimination, as other groups. Freedom and acceptance needs to be for all. I am concerned, based on past experience, that this is not the aim of this thread.

@Scirocco

How is being concerned about communitry relations in the UK be deemed Islamaphobic?

I am sorry about your experience of Islamaphobia and we need to work to prevent discrimination and hate against all faiths. I have not denied Islamaphobia exists in the UK nor anti semitism doesn't exist.

As a state we are fully behind the state of Israel as it needs assistance to defend itself against a number of regional enemies. It also stands that any stance that involves the removal of Israel as a state is anti Semitic

However, being pro Israel or recognising to the right of Israel itself is not inherently Islamophobic. I personally feel the Israeli response is excessive currently and I am concerned about civilian death. I think the UK stance mirrors it

You mention inter faith work which is really important but is failing at the moment. Is this because the Gazan conflict where there is a religious factor has lead to not only an Israel Palestine divide but an interesting faith divide

The concern about polarisation is identifying state conflict with inter faith conflict which I think some malign actors want.

We all hope for peace in the middle east and maybe that could be a unifying factor in all our communities

I agree OP.

But I think there will always be divisive issues in society. We have the traditional left vs right divide, brexit vs remain, pro vs anti gender, monarchists vs republicans, religion vs secularism, unionists vs pro indy supporters in Scotland, N Ireland & Wales, feminism vs mens rights activism, and pro vs anti immigration. They all rise and fall in prominence depending on what is going on in the world, and right now obviously the Middle East is one of the most dominant issues.

I seem to remember some research published in the Guardian a couple of years ago that said whilst many commenters like to see people as in one of 2 camps on cultural & social issues, actually almost everyone has some mix of views across these topics. I find this reassuring, and I think it's always good to remind people (and myself when I get carried away in an argument) that the person you disagree with passionately on one topic will probably back you up on another. Very few people have truly abhorrent opinions.

I agree with the OP - what worries me is that there is such intolerance. There are a whole spectrum of views, the UK is a democratic country and one of the values we have is to respect each other's views. Some of these demonstrations and some of those who hold strong views do not seem understand that other people are allowed to have differing options and just hurl insults and intimidate. I worry about this.

@mids2019 genuine concern about community relations is not Islamophobic.

There is a repeated pattern, though, of seeking Muslims and other people who have concerns to just be quiet. Community relations require respect for different viewpoints, not just telling them to toe the party line.

Much of the inter-faith work that has stopped has stopped because of factors such as withdrawal of funding, and the hardening of views meaning that Muslim voices aren't welcomed at those tables any more. Verbal abuse and stereotyping from people with whom I once worked, such as "I'm sure you understand, but this (me!) just makes me feel uncomfortable now". Islamic advocacy and outreach groups are being silenced. We're back to getting abusive graffiti scrawled outside our homes.

Things have got steadily worse over the past 10 years.

Casual Islamophobia and racism are now so comfortably embedded in society that it's entirely socially acceptable in many places, and some people don't even seem to realise they're engaging in it, while others are aware and use that social acceptability to get away with increasingly hurtful and damaging speech and actions.

@Underthinker

I agree and maybe mentioning religion in terms of this conflict introducing a complex factor and unnecessary.

We all have different views on this emotive conflict and it must be incredibly hard for our leaders to act diplomatically at a state level

My concern though is how you find a balance between free expression without resorting to insult or inciting religious or ethnic hatred.

We need to make it clear that Jews are not subject to racist and ethnic hatred and this includes acceptance of the Israeli state and also importantly that in the long term, although we have concerns about the current inflammation of this conflict, that we stand with her. The state of Israel in a lot of ways is synonous to Jewish identity

I think we need to combat the tropes that the British state including all it's institutions (military, foreign office) are anti Islamic. This divisive and incorrect view could lead to a feeling from some in this country that the country is somehow 'against' them. This in my opinion is not true.

We have a flourishing democracy for all of us to express our views and we should use democratic paths to make our views clear.

At a personal level I work in a diverse group in the public sector and there is an unspoken acceptance that this conflict isn't debated at length as it would be easy to inadvertently offend or decrease the quality of professional relationships

You say about making it clear that Jews are not subject to racist and ethnic hatred. Why do you only mention one group of people experiencing discrimination and hate?

The language you use does show a pattern of disregard for the safety and rights of Muslims and Palestinians (two separate entities), as you repeatedly do not make reference to Muslims as potential victims but instead as potential aggressors or threats. The premise of this thread reads as viewing Muslims as a threat to community relations, rather than as a broad faith group whose members are also experiencing significant discrimination and hatred in the community.

We need to make it clear that Jews are not subject to racist and ethnic hatred and this includes acceptance of the Israeli state and also importantly that in the long term, although we have concerns about the current inflammation of this conflict, that we stand with her. The state of Israel in a lot of ways is synonous to Jewish identity

Well done on eventually getting to the point of your thread, criticism of Israel = antisemitism.

I'm anti genocide, if you think that is anti semetic then it means you already know what the IDF and Israeli government are doing. My position would be the same regardless of whether it was France or Israel doing it. My anti genocide stance is consistent.

If robust discussions about our governments foreign policy make you feel uncomfortable then allow me to reassure you that participation is not mandatory but please don't tell me not to express a view because some bigots might ride the coat tails of a legitimate opinion or because we can't control other governments. Our protest tells our government we do not approve of them joining the celebratory bonfire of international law. That should matter to all of us.

I would also dispute the accusation of concerns about Islamophobia within government structures and systems being "a trope", "divisive" and "incorrect".

What prompts you, @mids2019 , to dismiss decades-worth of concerns and lived experience in this way? Would you be so dismissive if this were a different demographic raising the same concerns?

You have chosen your words very carefully throughout this thread OP, being mindful not to come across as antagonising. However your views in support of Israel are very clear.

*The UKs position with regard to Israel is not anti Muslim but simply an alignment with a long term ally whose existence the British were partly responsible for. We cannot escape history.

*"Simply an alignment with a long term ally" is making very light of mass murder don't you think.

*Israel are well within their rights to defend themselves.

Israel are prosecuting a war against a terrorist organisation.*

No mention of the current acts of terrorism by Israel?

As other people have said, this post is not in good faith. You are essentially silencing anyone who may have any empathy for the Palestinians. Of course there will be polarised views in the UK - we are led by Islamophobes from the top. Islamophobia is so deeply entrenched in our society that to question it is to be seen as causing division. I for one will not stop calling this out for what it is - genocide. Please take your 'concern' elsewhere. Maybe to the Daily Mail forums where you can openly rant til your heart is content and not have to think so carefully about how to disguise your actual views.

I agree that Islamophobia has become more insidious through a wider section of the population over the last decade.
In the 90s, I taught in a first generation immigrant area in a deprived area in the NW. I lived in a deprived, almost entirely white area. The prejudice was overt and perceptions of the Muslim population almost entirely negative.
Ignorance, fear, envy of perceived preferential treatment, worries of violence and no-go areas were some of the issues.
But some parts of the culture gave enough ammunition for those prejudices and hatreds ro point and say ‘See?’ And to generalise from a few examples to then judge entire populations of Muslims in the UK and Other them.
And for all the protests of ‘That’s not Islam’ thee were racist protests saying ‘Yes, it is, and we don’t want it here, go back to your country if you want those things to be acceptable’ And the alienation grew and became far more mainstream and subtle. And now it’s embedded at all levels.
And Israel uses those negative perceptions to its advantage in the propaganda war. You see the results in the YouGov poll.

*I think we need to combat the tropes that the British state including all it's institutions (military, foreign office) are anti Islamic. This divisive and incorrect view could lead to a feeling from some in this country that the country is somehow 'against' them. This in my opinion is not true.

*I find it insulting that you are undermining the actual lived experiences of many British Muslims like myself. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, and I can confirm that yes, at times I do feel like this country is very much against me. Like right now, reading your thinly veiled insults on Mumsnet.

PinkTeaForMe

’Please take your 'concern' elsewhere. Maybe to the Daily Mail forums where you can openly rant til your heart is content and not have to think so carefully about how to disguise your actual views.’

‘The Daily Mail website had more than 218 million unique visitors per month in 2020.’

People tend to worry more about things that directly affect them first.
Number of Israeli acts of terrorism on UK soil?
Number of terrorist attacks by Islamic militants on UK soil?
Extend that to Europe.
People who are afraid for themselves and their families are often irrational.
218 million a month are reading the Daily Mail’s website and internalising their message.