"The only purpose of these marches is to intimidate British Jews" (part three)

[stomachamelon]

Carrying on from part two....

This.

You make a fundamental error here by assuming that he was attacked because people support Hamas, that may or may not be true. It isn’t a given. It does show they have responded with violence to a statement that offends them.

With respect, I think you're tying yourself in knots to distract from the fact that there are Hamas supporters at the march.

Like the guy holding this who was leading chants through a loud-hailer?

How can one be offended by the statement 'Hamas are terrorists' 🤷

If somebody were to attend a protest for the hostages while holding a sign stating how many children had been killed in Gaza, it would have the same impact.

At the march against antisemitism, there was a lady nearby me holding a sign highlighting the suffering of the Palestinians and there was no hostility directed towards her whatsoever.

No, I am being specific with my words and the assignment of beliefs to individuals.

You used that he was attacked as evidence that supporters of Hamas were there, which is not actually evidence of that.

You are now suggesting I am trying to tie myself in knots to deny the presence of Hamas supporters, which again is an inference which is not based on evidence, as my comments were not about this.

You are assigning beliefs to people without evidence.

I am not. There is literally footage of the man being attacked, and it's bordering on gaslighting to suggest that the most obvious reason for this is "assigning beliefs".

You are also justifying physical violence.

You used that he was attacked as evidence that supporters of Hamas were there, which is not actually evidence of that.

Because you'd prefer to assume that they just (violently) object to his sign as 'detracting from the ceasefire message'?

But we know there are Hamas supporters at these marches. They've been interviewed, they've been seen dressing up as Hamas, they've been observed describing the terrorist attack as 'justified resistance'.

We have other evidence apart from the fact that saying Hamas are terrorists gets you attacked.

Like the guy holding this who was leading chants through a loud-hailer?

That looks like a riot shield and as if he was anticipating trouble...

Noblegiraffe so you are of the belief that occupied people should not be able to resist in any form. I wonder if you would hold the same belief if it was white people under occupation that were expected to live like this.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to resist in any form.

I'm saying that people shouldn't justify the absolutely horrendous terrorist attack of October 7th.

Do you think that attack was justified?

Doesn't every peaceful person have a riot shield lying around at home, doubles up as a sled or a very large breakfast tray, very practical.🤔

No I don’t, if that is what he was saying then I don’t agree with that, however there is nothing wrong with the sign. Personally I think holding up signs saying Hamas are terrorists at a pro Palestinian rally is similar to holding up signs that say Israel is being investigated for Genicide at a pro Israel rally.

No I don’t, if that is what he was saying then I don’t agree with that, however there is nothing wrong with the sign.

What "resistance" do you think he is referring to if not Hamas?

It could be referring to 74 years of resistance, the suffering of the Palestinian people and their resistance has gone back 74 years. Maybe he is referring to the boycott movement which you are also not keen on.

This not about skin colour, why are you trying to shoehorn that in?

Now?
Why now?
Who is "they"?
As for "They need to stop bringing foreign wars onto British streets" I fear you don't know London (where are you?) nor have any sense of history.
Matters "foreign" have long been debated in London and on London streets by folks concerned about things outside this tiny isle and concerned that things are being done in their name. And with their arms.
We do have a foreign office you know.
And a foreign policy.
And diplomats plonked all over the place.
And a host of foreign diplomats (yep and amongst them doubtless some spies and "influencers")
Would you shut them all down?
Britain has long provided a space for folks from all over (you may know some and indeed may be descended from some) and of course they and Brits feel that British democracy allows them to be concerned about "foreign" matters.

I don't know how old you are but perhaps you remember (or hey there is always studying history) any Vietnam demos? Anti apartheid marches? Both of those causes were a matter of legitimate interest to Brits of all sorts.

I take it you weren't around in the 19th century (but again there is history) but you might care to contemplate Karl Marx. And others Jewish by background.

And if you think the state of Israel doesn't have activities in "foreign" countries designed to gloss its various activities you are I feel very much deluded.
Stating yet again in case there are any attempts at smears - anti semitism stinks and Israel has a right to exist.

By the by I gather the government is planning to announce new definitions of extremism next week - we'll have to wait and see what they are, though it seems to me that this country, with its long long diverse history, already has enough laws to deal with any bad actors/actions.

And yet we know that people, including people on MN have justified the 7th October attacks as resistance. There seem to be some on here determined to write off anything negative as 'meaning something else'.

Also, I've said boycotting Starbucks is stupid, not that boycotting is stupid. It's bad form to drag an argument from on thread to another. It's even worse form to misrepresent it.

I’m not sure I genuinely believe that posters are unable to understand that the meaning of a sentence depends on the context in which it is used.

Protesters screaming that people like me - a left wing, pro-ceasefire, British Jew that identifies as zionist - need to "get off" the streets of my own city because I'm apparently "scum".

https://twitter.com/habibi_uk/status/1766505014506254783

Is there another meaning and context there that I'm missing?? Why aren't the organisers calling this shit out? Because they agree with them, that's why. And they'd prefer to shut down a protester having a pop at Hamas.

The hateful language and level of gaslighting now in relation to the protests and the wider antisemitism it's encouraging is unreal, and devastating for many, many British Jews. If others Jews want to ignore all this and join the protestors then fuck every one of them for enabling this to be frank (and I'm saying that as someone that is very, very critical of Israel and against the war).

Here's Diane 'not Jewish' Abbot leading the charge and having the gall to decide for us we're not actually frightened and are therefore liars (because we're not the good Jews on the protest). I for one, am scared, and I'm not even visibly Jewish, so I dread to think how some Jews are feeling just now. https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1766063482988900652

And it's not just coming from the hard left and Islamist factions - the moderate or centre left are now implying we're making it up too, just so they can sock it to the Tories on the back of their hyperbolic rhetoric. (There's been another thread over the weekend with normally moderate and considerate posters who are now doing exactly this, just because they hate the Tories). We're just political footballs now between right and left.

Oh and apparently it's completely fine to shout 'genocide enablers' at synagogue-goers, including children, because 'but Gaza'. https://twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1766605629454458989

Oh I completely believe there will be Hamas supporters hiding within this generally peaceful march.

But we can’t assign meaning to people’s actions without actual evidence, the meaning assigned will be biased to the view point of whoever is doing the assigning. That people responded violently is an indicator that those people ‘may’ support Hamas. All we can say for certain is that the responded violently in this instance, which is of course completely unacceptable.

You know the 'in context' argument was used to justify antisemitism in American universities recently, it was not totally successful there.

So we recently had a case where a vote in Parliament was affected by threats and intimidation from Islamists and now we have a case where the police violently detain an Iranian dissident due to threats and intimidation from Islamists. Our politicians have dragged a reluctant public into a scenario where a malign foreign power, Iran, is holding power over the governance of this country. I believe the majority of people on these marches are purely anti-Western liberal democracy, and sadly their threatening tactics are having a chilling effect on public life. Isn't it strange that there isn't a BDS movement against China, a country which is actually genocidal about Muslims?

Oh I completely believe there will be Hamas supporters hiding within this generally peaceful march.

But you also said So by the same reasoning, to hold a sign saying ‘Hamas are terrorists’ implies that people need to be reminded of this or that people are marching to support Hamas, which is unnecessary and inflammatory.

So perhaps a sign reminding those Hamas supporters that Hamas are terrorists is not, in fact, unnecessary?

@noblegiraffe oh wow you got me it’s completely necessary after all. No it’s not necessary, and it is inflammatory.
Do you genuinely believe that there are a significant number of people within the march who support Hamas because they don’t realise they are a terrorist organisation, and that the sign will help them see the error of their ways?

I think the fact that some marchers think it is “goady” to hold posters saying “ Hamas are terrorists “ is incredibly revealing.
At best - it means they are unwittingly blocking out Hamas’ role in the suffering of Gazans as well as Israelis.
At worst- it means they are Hamas supporters .

People who want a ceasefire and peace should agree with condemnation of Hamas as well as Netanyahu