Holocaust survivors take on the violence -

[Chaitales]

I watched Gabor Matés interview with Piers and found it excellent. He mentioned so many points we have been debating for weeks on this thread

• the importance of context
• charters
• Israels right of self defence - and his own experience in Hungary of that
• steps for way forward

Did anyone else watch it?

I haven't seen Norman Finklesteins yet but it appears to be in the same line.

Im wondering, for all those who support the war, how does, if it does, impact your/their views when holocaust survivors themselves decry most of Israels actions?

Thank you for sharing. I really enjoyed watching that.

Thanks, will look at that later.

a lot of holocaust survivors or their immediate family have said same. Cynthia nixon was on hunger strike and her parents are holocaust babies.

its great isn't it. He is so calm and composed and to be piers' credit, he doesn't interrupt either. Will watch Finklesteins too and post later.

On every pro Palestine thread on this board, there has been denial, whataboutery and accusations of anti semitism. Genuine question to those detractors - does a holocaust survivors perspective make the arguments more valid? Why or why not?

He was very measured. Thank you for sharing this.
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between explaining why 07/10 happened and excusing it. Nothing happens without a reason.

This was one of the best interviews on Pier's show. Normally he just shouts people down.

100%! Sadly it's far easier to see events in isolation rather than honestly confront the wider picture, because it shatters your status quo and beliefs.

I was listening to lbc today where they were talking about cyber crime and how to prevent fraud. The speaker - an ex con turned crime warner was talking about how humans are driven by fear and con artists play on this - for example a con caller will say "you're about to lose xyz quickly transfer funds" or "act quickly before this happens..." so people act on haste out of fear and give away numbers etc. The same is true about race, migration and war. It's driven by fear of the other - so even before we look at facts, history and context, we make rash judgements based on fear of the other and self protection (Israel has the right to defend itself) - against what, has anyone asked? And why?

I don't know but Norman Finkelstein is also an expert on the Israeli Palestinian issue and people need to see that Zionists do not represent all Jews

I would always listen with interest to any survivor of the Shoah, but of course his views are not representative.

My grandad, who died two years ago, was a survivor and an avowed zionist. I used to argue with him bitterly. He used to call me a self hating Jew. I'd probably still argue with him but the gap has really closed.

Great interview.

This is the first time I watched Piers Morgan without thinking he is a knobhead.

Thank you for sharing that. What made you disagree with his line of thinking if you don't mind my asking?

Chaitales two things, really. First is that I wanted Palestinian liberation - and still do, but I think my understanding of the issue is much deeper, and I would no longer argue it the way I used to.

I now think that both peoples have a legitimate claim on the land. I am no longer romantic about how traumatised people behave. I have a better grasp of all the other nations involved. I no longer believe in quick or simple solutions (though I still think peace is possible). I do now share his concerns about fundamentalism and jihadism, though I still find his Islamophobia completely unacceptable. I do still think Netanyahu should be in prison, and the settlers moved whether they like it or not.

I'm also a lot more sympathetic to his view that Jews are not safe in the world. He lived in Berlin till his late teens, and saw it transform from one of the best places in the world to be a Jew, to the worst. He lost everything. Although I always understood how traumatic that must have been, I thought it was over. I'm no longer confident that it is.

Why is it only Holocaust survivors opinions that seem to matter? Why not those who survived the pogroms and forced displacement of Jews from Arab countries around the same time? 900 000 Jews were forced to leave their homes due to rampant antisemitism. Is it because you don't know of their existence, in which case I'm happy to help educate you if you're interested, or is it because their opinions almost certainly will not help you in your efforts to demonise Israel?

The Israeli government is doing a great job at demonising itself.
"He who fights against monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster in the process."

Humdingerydoo because people like their Jews to be European, tragic, and dead.

An excellent point.

I’m curious to know whether people would find the opinions of Holocaust survivors who support Israeli actions equally as valid and authoritative?

What a superb observation point.

Thank you for sharing that. I agree with a lot of what you say. In my interactions with people across all races and religions at work etc, I have come across a lot of anti semitism. Often people will say it to my face (as an obvious muslim woman) perhaps thinking I'll agree, ironically enough a few months later they will say something equally Islamophobic. Hatred towards people of a certain religion is flip sides of the same coin. But it did make me feel more aware of anti semitism and the need for Jewish people to have their own homeland. I do wish it hadn't come at such a devastating and ongoing cost to Palestinians. It also made me increasingly annoyed at (some) Muslim leaders for having land and wealth, but for many reasons including imperialistic legacies and crippling financial control, but also own myopia, for not appreciating and using that more for good. Discussion for another thread haha but thank you for sharing and I can understand where you are coming from

I may have missed a msg but where did I say only their opinion matters? There are thousands of opinions from people affected all across the region, which have been discussed here. I was offering one take which I was curious about. If you choose to have a knee jerk reaction and take offence rather than maturely discuss it, that's not on me.

Maybe don't project your own biases onto others?

I'm happy to discuss it - I'm the granddaughter of both Holocaust survivors and of Iraqi forced expulsion of Jews. I've had family murdered on both sides for the crime of being Jewish.

I'm just not sure why anyone would think a Holocaust survivor would know more about the current war, have greater insight, purely because they're a Holocaust survivor? I feel like my Iraqi family would have much more relevant and greater insight into the matter.

Anyway, my opinions don't change because a couple of holocaust survivors say something. Plenty of Holocaust survivors have the exact opposite opinions. I don't consider Holocaust survivors to necessarily have more insight than others. That's why I asked my original question. But you're right, you asked a specific question and I should've just answered it.

Chaitales, it's not my bias, it is (sadly) my experience. But, on your earlier response - I agree that the Palestinians have paid a terrible price for Jewish safety. I'm not OK with that. But we can't turn the clock back to 1948, we have to find a way forward.

Sorry that was a bit of a flippant rather than thought through response. I walk into many places and people make immediate assumptions, eg I have worked in prisons - they immediately think I'm a family member visiting an inmate, or I can be compiling a mopac report on youth crime or walk into a court of justice and assumed to be from the perpetrators crew. For context, I am a young, petite, fairly attractive pale skinned woman who wears a hijab. My experiences will tell me that many people want me to go "back to my own country" - brexit ads showed us this - as I said, hatred is flip sides of the same coin. But I wouldn't necessarily project this onto everyone and say everyone wants Muslims gone. I have equally met wonderful people from across the spectrum of races. Fear of the other is a common psychological tactic used by politicians/scammers/leaders to sway public opinion to an intended outcome regardless of societal breakdown. We are all victims of this