"You don’t need to share your views on Gaza"

[TheWayTheLightFalls]

A) Headline is terrible b) absolutely aware of posting my opinion of someone else's opinion about everyone having too much of an opinion on things, on a chat forum which is all about sharing opinions. And I can give or take James Marriott. But, actually - I agree with this.

"One of the bleakest discoveries of the pandemic was quite how many people imagined themselves to be amateur epidemiologists brimming with compelling insights on lockdowns and vaccine science. The war in Ukraine turned the epidemiologists into experts on military hardware. The war in Gaza has bestowed an unexpected new round of degrees in Middle Eastern history."

He goes on to explicate, though I'm not sure how much of a published paywalled newspaper article I can legitimately post here.

I just wish there was more "I don't know", more "It seems like x but I can also see that it might be y, or z". More "Here's something I found but does anyone know anything about this source, is it legit?" People on this forum are literate, typically with some education behind them, demographically likely to be at or near middle age. I cannot bear the hot takes and unreferenced links from all corners of the internet. It's unhelpful and, I'd say, actually harmful - people read it and get stirred up and pushed to more extreme position taking, more black and white thinking.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/you-dont-need-to-share-your-views-on-gaza-n87dq0sj9

This thread will change nothing, of course, but if we're all sharing our opinions then this is mine.

The above seems to include a share token, hope that's worked.

My opinion has been formed on tik tok of all places

Seeing with my own eyes what's happening first hand....in both Gaza and Israel.

No need for any newspapers, tv journalists sat in studios, specialists,epidemiologists or whatever else.

Excellent post OP and a very thought provoking article.

Only a certain type of person would want people to be and stay ignorant.

I’ve reading, learning, watching, listening and educating myself more.
And it horrifying.
Words are not enough.
Everything Israel has done since -48, everything every single Palestinian has been through.
Humanity ows them everything.

So, like I said, everyone who wants people to stay ignorant, is most likely not a good person / have good intentions.

Too many people opine without having any understanding of the background. This article is absolutely correct.

The trouble with learning about stuff from tik tok is that it doesn’t help you analyse what’s going on. War is always terrible. Sometimes it is undoubtedly necessary. Often it is not. What should Israel do to protect its citizens from Hamas?

Listening to what was going on in the government during the run-in to covid showed me that actually ‘amateurs’ (like those on the MN Covid data thread at the time) can actually be extremely accurate and insightful, showing better understanding and insight then those in power.

So I disagree to a degree. I don’t think on all occasions that sitting back and ‘letting the leaders’ deal with it in the way they see fit is necessarily the best thing to do. When you consider what a mess they often make of it.

I think using the channels we can (MPs etc) to express our views is healthy and reasonable.

I can see it mybed. There are a couple of people on here who I hope run UK military or governance strategy irl (unlikely). But at the moment for me these are heavily outweighed and on a democratic forum it often feels like who is shouting the loudest.

I don’t think it’s about staying ignorant @LittleMsTellTheTruth , or that’s not how I read it. More imo about reading plenty, reflecting and channeling that in ways that are useful.

Sometimes the evidence is there for all to see. And corroborated by the media and UN. This isn't the case regarding vaccines, where ignorant people were spouting pseudoscience.

There are a couple of people on here who I hope run UK military or governance strategy irl (unlikely). I read a post earlier and my first response was, we need you on a negotiating team.

I like a mix of opinion and fact, I like my links long and to noninflammatory sources. Wikipedia is fine it does the job plus it is referenced and has an edit history.

Misinformation, half quotes and daily mail type headlines irritate me.

Everyone brings something to the table, because everyone views the issue from a different angle. Black and white thinkers are often scared.

I don't need a degree in Middle Eastern history to know that collective punishment of a captive civilian population is wrong.

Feel free to direct me to the approved sources of information which will make deliberately depriving people of food, water and basic medical care morally OK? If becoming an "expert" is required to overlook these crimes against humanity then I'd rather stay ignorant.

By your logic we would all need multiple degrees in a range of subjects to have an opinion on anything or be qualified to vote.

Who needs experts when you have tiktok

I read that article and couldn’t disagree more

He doesn’t want people not to educate themselves. He wants people spouting off based on watching a few TikTok’s.

[to stop]

Also read that article and couldn’t disagree more. I hope I’d have had an opinion on the rise of the Nazis, treatment of First Nation peoples, sterilisation of the mentally disabled, disenfranchisement on the basis of race, ditto sex, slavery, child labour, child sacrifice in ancient Maya.
🤡

How do we use the share token? It doesn’t seem to come up when I click the link. Thank you

(I can’t read the article as behind a paywall so sorry in advance if I’ve missed the point)

People have always had opinions and been very certain their opinion is correct. This is not a new thing. It helps if they’re informed opinions of course but tbh even a degree in Middle Eastern studies will only get you so far if you don’t live there.

I think as far as, discussion on this board goes, most people assume they won’t be listened so get belligerent and everyone else is doing the same. So it’s mostly bun fights. I think we’re all fairly sane /of average intelligence underneath all the bluster though.

I don’t see it as being about having the opinion @Lamelie but rather sharing the opinion. Which sounds like pedantry written down but I think it is an important distinction.

I’d be very concerned if people didn’t think about and form opinions about all the things you mentioned, or about the current conflict. It’s the broadcasting of sometimes ill-informed opinions which I think is harmful.

@ferntwist I’ll try PM it to you, I’m not a sophisticated user of the Times app!

Of course opinions against evil have to be shared. There’s no moral virtue in knowing something is wrong and not acting on it. Quite the opposite.

@lamelie thinking for example about the hospital attack (and I'm hugely wary of giving an actual example from the current conflict but I'll brace myself) - within hours of it happening there was

a huge number of deaths claimed by Hamas
disputed (I think?) intercepted or "intercepted" comms released by the IDF
statements of condemnation from various aid groups
various apparently verified bomb/military hardware expects weighing in to explain why the bomb was x and not y / y and not x.

And lots of people going off into echo chambers / shouting at the fools or morons on the "other side".

That to me is an example of where watchful waiting for verified facts would have been appropriate.

Separately, I don't think there's inherent moral virtue in posting about this sort of thing on Twitter, Mumsnet, Insta etc.

People have freedom of speech in the UK. That is nost the case in the dreadful regimes who want to eradicate Israel. Hamas terrorists invaded and now there is war. Lots of innocent people die in wars. Hamas knew it would come to this - they chose what is now happening. The sooner Hamas is destroyed the better and the sooner all Palestinians accept the state of Israel the better as Israel is not going away and nor is US/UK support for Israel.

I'm astonished that your average person thinks that they know enough to have an opinion on this. I certainly don't know enough. There have been hideous atrocities committed by both sides and there is nearly a century of recent history behind this, not to mention the ancient history.

Brace yourself @TheWayTheLightFalls the hospital bombing, IDF or one of the official channels posts a pic of misfired missile, one of the nerds I follow goes, WTF seen that footage before. Said footage turns out to be from Oct 2022. Post is retracted.
If we all just sat back, the lies would penetrate deeply.
It probably was a misfired Hamas missile, but provide the correct truth.
We need nerds to point out when the truth changes.