62% of British adults are not taking a side in the Israel-Gaza conflict

[lavender2023]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/10/16/b8bd3/1

Personally as a Jewish person (with family in Israel), I feel heartened by the results as it shows we are a compassionate country who can feel sympathy with both sides or are sensible enough to tick 'don't know' when they feel like they can't understand a complicated foreign conflict. I personally would probably tick 'both sides equally' or 'don't know' because i have such mixed feelings! I was reading some posts yesterday about Jewish people who want to move to Israel because apparently anti-semitism is worse than rockets. There are very valid concerns but we should at least take heart that the majority of people are far more nuanced and not taking sides like one would pick a football team, or are anti Israel . Social media isn't real life

There are regional variations but even in London, 56% of people are not taking sides. The one age group which is pro palestinian is the 18-24 group which is 39%, but at the same time, the combined numbers of 'don't know' and 'both sides' are 40%.

A good answer for now would just be a humanitarian ceasefire. It would be allowing access to clean water and electricity and food and fuel. That’s what everyone should be raising their voices about.

Yes, the partition was and is divisive (as are many states) but it was religiously motivated. You also can't have automatic citizenship and a right to live there because someone two generations ago was a certain religion.
I think you are the only Jewish person here who states that Judaism isn't an ethnicity, the other posters have all said it is.
I totally believe anyone who has been persecuted should have a safe place to live. Do I believe all Jews in the contemporary world are persecuted? Absolutely not. Do they face discrimination? Yes, along with many other minorities. I think the Jewish state (and I appreciate this is only my opinion so might well sound utterly ridiculous 😬) should have been reserved for religious, visible Jews. They are the ones who are more likely to be actually persecuted and need safety. Their need for a very kosher way of life would also be taken care of in a Jewish state. I don't consider that people who are born of a Jewish grandmother, but are atheist and have little to no connection to a Jewish way of life require protection as such any more than any other minority. But then again a lot of 'ethnic' Jews in Israel harbour resentment to the more religious ones, and vice versa. The religious ones I know do not feel the need to be there for safety, it is their ideological belief that they as the chosen people were granted the land as theirs by God,so it should be theirs at any cost to anyone else. That ideology obviously then requires that the Palestinians should be eradicated and expelled in order to make way for them. And that is obviously very problematic.

I don't think I have seen any Jew on this thread who says that Jews are an ethnicity. They are saying that their basis of being Jewish is based on their birth aka not something they can help. Judaism cannot be purely an ethnicity as Jews come from many ethnic groups. Including the Jews on this thread. 60% of Jews are POC, someone who is Iranian Jewish is clearly not of the same ethnicity as my blonde hair green eyed SIL or my DH whose looks have been compared to the vampire guy in twilight. Or me, I am very clearly not white.

What is a Jewish way of life? My synagogue doesn't think that keeping kosher is mandatory, why is my way of life less valid than my MIL who keeps kosher. We are both Jews. It is true that people who keep kosher may benefit more from being in a Jewish country while people like me adapt more easily to a secular country. In addition, people are not binary. My SIL was observant and then she married someone who wasn't religious and so now she isn't. It can happen in another way too.. I am Liberal now but who is to say that I wouldn't turn orthodox in later life? Who is to say someone who is atheist wouldn't turn to orthodox Judaism or vice versa.

My DH faces discrimination in the workplace despite being an atheist Jew (he does like going to my synagogue on occasion but he is firmly atheist). I have written about this before and it means he can only really work for banks with a strong diversity policy, smaller employers don't want to hire him. It does mean we have to live in London where it is easier for him to get a job. He is very obviously Jewish due to having a Hebrew name. At the moment, as he is gainfully employed and is able to find such jobs, we are fine. But people who are less educated would probably struggle. Someone like that may be better off in Israel, particularly if that person is fluent in Ivrit due to learning it well as a child.

@feralunderclass

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/

Saying Jews were a race was also a viewpoint propagated by Hitler.

Jews disagree about many things, and how to designate the Jews as a whole is one of them.
Are Jews united by a shared religion? Yes, the Jewish community shares certain religious inclinations, including belief in one God, shared holidays (like Shabbat, Passover and Yom Kippur), and upholding the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud as central religious texts. But in practice, many Jews are secular, atheist and/or non-practicing and yet still identify as Jews and are accepted by the community as Jewish.
Are Jews a culture? Yes, broadly speaking, except that Jews whose families hail from Europe, the Middle East, Africa, India, the Iberian peninsula and elsewhere often share little in the way of traditional foods, music, language and more.
Are Jews a nation? Yes, except that it has been several millennia since all Jews lived in a single country, if indeed they ever did. Even today, when there is a Jewish state, most Jews do not live there and many identify primarily with the nation in which they live.
Some Jews prefer to use terms like “people” or “tribe” — terms that encompass more of the diversity noted above, but also have less precise definitions. Such terms are generally more inclusive of the diversity inherent in the Jewish community, allowing for the possibility that one can become Jewish by either birth or conversion, that one can stop practicing Jewish religious rituals or disavow Jewish beliefs and still identify as Jewish, and that one can identify primarily as Indian or American and still be recognized as Jewish.
In Hebrew, the Jews refer to themselves as Am Yisrael, a term that is itself ambiguous. It can mean either “nation of Israel” or “people of Israel.”

@feralunderclass
This probably describes many Jewish posters on this thread. They think of it as cultural/ethnic as that is the exposure that they had and they may not have exposure to another Jewish culture as they were born/bred in the UK. Ashkenazi Jewish culture is also the most commonly portrayed in TV/movies but it is not the only form of Jewish culture out there, quite far from it!

Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education.
Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. As a Sephardic friend likes to remind me, Yiddish is not part of his culture, nor are bagels and lox, chopped liver, latkes, gefilte fish or matzah ball soup. His idea of Jewish cooking includes bourekas, phyllo dough pastries filled with cheese or spinach. His ancestors probably wouldn't know what to do with a dreidel.
There are certainly cultural traits and behaviors that are shared by many Jews, that make us feel more comfortable with other Jews. Jews in many parts of the world share many of those cultural aspects. However, that culture is not shared by all Jews all over the world, and people who do not share that culture are no less Jews because of it. Thus, Judaism must be something more than a culture or an ethnic group.

Thanks for your replies @lavender2023 .I must admit that the whole Jewish Ness as an ethnicity and race confuses me too, but it's what I learned on here. I'm not sure why the posters are not condemning you for saying it, when they were condemning non Jewish people. I've tried to tag a few that I remember saying that they were Jewish by DNA but they must have name changed as their usernames aren't coming up. I would like to start a thread about this some time outside the context of the conflict as I think it's very interesting. For me (and as a non Jew I acknowledge this means nothing) Jewish Ness is attached to Torah observance. I know of Jewish people who wouldn't accept your reform conversion as valid, for example, and they might even deny you are Jewish. I found it very ofdd for example when Miriam from My Unorthodox Life said she feels very Jewish, when she doesn't like the religion and is also an atheist. What makes someone "feel Jewish?" I've never heard a born Muslim or Christian who became atheist say they "feel Muslim/Christian". Is it just the attachment to certain rituals or days? All genuine questions I'd love to discuss, but again away from this board.

The phrase 'the right side of history" is for narcissists and sounds like yet another debate stifling, control freak phrase straight out of some pseudo rich White Westerner 'luxury Communist" playbook.
And the people who speak like this use the Narcissist's Playbook of Black and White thinking, need for constant "supply" , barely concealed rage at lack of total compliance to their thoughts and way of doing things, constant triangulation of " non total believers" with the worst of people and when they have no other tactic they bring up those who cannot speak back....in this case dead babies ( whilst the dead babies from the 'other side" have been othered into not ever existing and instead are propaganda to justify attack).
Hyper online emotionalism to these types ( who have to mimic emotions and have no sense of propiety due to narcissism ) is a sign of one being a worthy human, whereas the average person sees " unhinged".
And it is the same few, typing in the same obsessed and fractured way.
The last time I saw such obssession and anger at anybody's acknowledgement that a world issue is far bigger than the wheelhouse that they can cope with .....was Angela Merkel "let in" thousands of refugees/ migrants from Middle East and Africa through Eastern/ South Eastern Europe resulting in the Calais camps.
Not even the war in Ukraine has manifested the exact same weirdness of expression and demand for compliance to point of view and " rightsideofhistoryism".
And , of course the other tens of worldwide conflicts are just ignored by the usual suspects.
And for the poster who mentioned South Africa?
No, there was absolutely no complication as to the provenance , manifestation and aims of Apartheid. One set of people with absolutely NO provenance in a whole continent, much less land , took over and iterated a system that had the monoracial natives at the bottom in their own land. It was as simple as that. There was absolutely no doubt as to good and bad guys and many of those from the "bad guys" who made protestations on behalf of "the good" had to pick up and leave pretty damn quick....because a minority that has a majority under manners in what is undisputably their land has to be excellent at finessing brutality.
And guess what?
Many Black people in the Diaspora wanted to go down to South Africa and help turn over Apartheid. People were angry. "To boycott" wasn't the only emotion going around. But Black South African leadership and allies had a vision of a nation that they and non Blacks were all going to have to share should Apartheid fall.
And another thing that they had was a combination of militant, diplomatic ( but with integrity to the vision) allied and artistic advocacy.
They didn't legitimise allyship of a "rabble" disposition. There was always a streak of intellect running through those who were put forward or were allowed to put themselves forward on behalf of anti Apartheid movement....no matter how uncomfortable or comfortable they made people feel.
And the Black South Africans did far more with far less on behalf of their emancipation than most others, too.

The UN and then Common Market was most definitely not sending millions in aid to help Black South Africans. People throw the Apartheid word around like confetti. But Palestine and South African Apartheid are of no comparison in oppression or advocacy.

Thanks @lavender2023 again. And yes I agree about the heavy cultural influences making quite distinct demarcations at times. I'd head to a Sephardi shabbat meal over an Ashkenazi one any day 😁.

Totally agree with you OP. Anyone who is fully taking sides, one way or the other, obviously doesn't know or understand much about it, and the 'leadership' on both sides who vehemently take one narrow position, are very much the problem. I feel very angry with the people at the top, it feels like they have a vested interest in perpetuating it all, but I don't understand their mindset. How can they not see that they make.it worse?!

How are you defining civilised, and how many Israelis and Palestinians have you met to enable you to reach this judgement?

My personal take is that Netanyahu is an incompetent and corrupt leader who wanted violent co-existence with Hamas so he could be 'Mr Security' every 2-3 years when a war inevitably erupted and he could send in the IDF with all guns blazing 'to mow the lawn'. Obviously this gets people very fearful and overstimulated like it would in any country esp with rockets and sirens and the like. Given that the IDF doesn't really need Netanyahu's 'expertise' to do their jobs. But it is a lot easier than solving the country's actual problems like public services, healthcare and housing which literally every developed country is grappling with. The difference is that if there is no war, people really do zoom in on those issues and blame the government so they inevitably lose power eventually. Plus those issues are actually more acute in Israel, they have the highest poverty rate in the OECD for example and an apartment in Jerusalem is as much as 26 times average income. The people I know are remarkably unconcerned with such issues compared to people in the UK despite suffering the brunt of it as new young immigrants (with little wealth) and the difference is the security situation. There have been protests at the cost of living but ironically this is spearheaded by relatively well off people in Tel Aviv, it has never caught on with the rest of the country.

Hamas-- they are terrorists so their job is to make chaos.

@emmylousings There is nothing 'civilised' about Israel. You have a lot to learn about this conflict. This programme is a good place to start: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3psMGQE0iW4&pp=ygUUcm9hZG1hcCB0byBhcGFydGhlaWQ%3D

Thanks @lavender2023 . Your posts are very informative and well written.

Me neither, I'll think you'll find OP that most people will pick a side, I know I have, quite a few people are afraid to speak in rl on this one, so no I'm not heartened by it either.

@Ecdysiast didn't the European Commission say that the term apartheid was not 'appropriate to use about the state of Israel' so it doesn't give me much hope that the programme is anymore than propaganda.

Israel drives most of its policies due to security considerations and suggesting otherwise just seeks to delegitimise Israel even more. Israel and its people should be allowed to live in peace and without the fear of violence. And before you jump in and say so do Gazans' you have to remember who is driving this.... Hamas. Who withhold immunities and securities and fail to provide security for the people they are supposed to govern.

Not it's not, it's about land grabbing....

Any number of ways.

Israel is a functioning democracy, has rule of law, mostly treats women fairly in many areas (still work to do there though) amongst other things.

Put it this way. If I were dropped into downtown Tel Aviv at night, I would have a reasonable expectation of seeing the sun rise again. Same situation in Gaza City, I would expect to be dead within the hour.

Look at all the moronic Hamas sympathisers here. Throwing coloured mice in restaurants, smashing windows. What next?

Don't have to meet any from either side. Just look at the actions and supporters and draw your own conclusion about which regime you would like to live under.

This.

A post a few back just tried to contrast the South African Anti-Apartheid movement with the current allyship with the Palestinian struggle. I quote:

”They didn't legitimise allyship of a "rabble" disposition.””

“There was always a streak of intellect running through those who were put forward or were allowed to put themselves forward on behalf of anti Apartheid movement”.

You heard it here first, guys, Palestinians and their allies are just a stupid “rabble.”

It’s always thinly veiled anti-Palestinian, Muslim and Arab bigotry. Every time.

Also please do some research before commenting that this has nothing to do with apartheid. In recent years, organisations such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem and others have stated that Israel is committing apartheid against Palestinians.

Nelson Mandela himself famously said “we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

Agreed, I also find your posts very interesting and thought-provoking @lavender2023. I don't always concur with you - in fact I very strongly disagree with some of your comments on this thread and others about ethnicity/'ethnoreligion'. But I accept we're coming from a very different experience and perspective on this. I like @feralunderclass's idea of doing a thread on it although also agree we should do so at a later date, outside the context of the conflict. I'd definitely be keen to have a discussion on this but at the moment I feel very drained by MN threads and current events (and life!).

Please tag me if you ever do start a thread.

@feralunderclass Of course 😊

So I've got to be honest, if I observe an argument between two human beings, I tend to empathise more with the one who demonstrates a capacity for self-reflection.

I might be totally ignorant here, and if so, please educate me (I really mean this). But where are the Palestinian equivalents of the anti-war films of Samuel Maoz (reflecting his experiences as a rookie conscript in the Lebanese war) and the recent Jewish protests against the Gaza bombings ("Not in my name")?

This is exactly happens in India whenever there is right wing government, They keep highlighting kashmir/pakistan/china , They strategically neglect the security for a period and use that oppurtunity to create a war like situation to win the elction every time.

Oh good lord… the UK sort it out?

Which of our illustrious Gvt Ministers, departments or leaders do you imagine could sort this out? Are you following the Covid, enquiry? The fantastic solutions to the Irish question wrt Brexit? (Which they quite simply forgot would be an issue in getting Brexit ‘done!)

We don’t have moral leaders of the calibre of Desmond Tutu and the architects of Truth and Reconciliation, we are a whining failing economy with dwindling international influence.

But you are right to recognise our role in the creation of this murderous mess.