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Conflict in the Middle East

What was Hamas Strategy here?

55 replies

eardefender · 29/10/2023 13:33

I am assuming that Hamas are not stupid.

I came across a journalist called Haviv Rettig Ur. A political correspondent for the Times of Israel.

He made an interesting point (excuse my clumsy paraphrasing here) that due to the terror attacks the left in Israel has now abandoned a path to a two state solution (although i am aware that Hamas has always rejected this). His reasoning was that the attacks had woken the left to the prospect of having another terrorist run state in the west bank as Gaza became. That Israelis now thought that they had conceded ground in the north and that had led to a vacuum which had been filled by Hezbollah. They then conceded ground in Gaza when they pulled out in 2005 and this vacuum was filled by Hamas.
They now look to the West Bank which is much larger than Gaza and has direct access to fire rockets and can harm Israelis from a high vantage point over the whole of Israel. Therefore many are pulling back from wanting to entertain the idea of two states.

So Hamas has united Israel, where before there was division, Possibly killed Israeli support for a two state solution on the grounds of Israeli safety.

He also said there was trade with Israel and Gaza, some manufacturing would be done in Gaza, people in Gaza worked in Israel.

Now the border will be closed. I find this so sad, no more trade or Jobs with Gaza for Gazans. Israel understandably will not want to open that border again as it is clearly unsafe to do so and a huge security risk.

So Garzans have lost jobs and income, electricity and water from Israel. the north is flattened. They now will have to rely on foreign aid through the Egyptian crossing only. Do Egypt want their country to be the only crossing to Gaza and all that entails. I don't think so.

That Hamas stockpiled fuel etc for themselves shows that they knew there would be a closure of the border and utilities would be turned off.

Did they think this would ignite sympathetic Islamic countries to rise up against Israel and declare war. If so then that hasn't happened. Were they expecting more help from those they perceive as their allies. Egypt and Jordan have apparently said no to any Palestinian refugees (i am not blaming them for that, they don't want Hamas in their countries). The support for Hamas has been noise and talk but not perhaps the military support they were hoping for.

Can anyone provide insight and analysis as to what it is that Hamas wanted to happen from this attack. I cannot see how it has benefited them or their cause. The consequences are horrific.

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ReligionisTribes · 29/10/2023 13:55

Ear, I thought most of that when they committed the atrocities.
Why?
I felt something bigger is /was going on and this is the trip wire to larger conflict based on ancient religious lines unfortunately.

It's quite frightening really for the world. At work I have very educated westernised colleagues one born here.
He always talks about UK as though it wasn't his country and has a deep breath seated hate of the US and us involvement in the middle east.
He follows at times cultural norms but declares himself non religious.

Ie a well balanced educated person free from religious ties not once condemned hammas or considered why Biden was in tel aviv... He didn't question the hospital bombing.

It's immediate "us agaisnt you".

I think hammas were aware they are loosing their grip they will be extinguished if things are cordial between isreal and gaza.

It's certainly not cordial now, all those small wins have been wiped out and a few more generations of pain sowed.

LeavesOnTrees · 29/10/2023 13:56

Not an expert here and I in no way condone Hamas but to me their attacks on Israel were a desperate suicide mission.

Go out with a bang instead of being killed off slowly.

The Gaza strip has been like a boiling pressure pot that has finally exploded.

PermanentTemporary · 29/10/2023 13:58

I'm no expert but the reporting makes it seem very likely that the Hamas raid happened now to stop the process by which Saudi Arabia was going to recognise Israel. That now presumably won't happen.

Echobelly · 29/10/2023 14:00

All I can imagine is that they knew Netanyahu would respond in a way that would also be repellant to the world at large, so regardless of the cost to the Palestinian people they did it because they knew the sheer scale of Israel's response in response to anything they are capable of doing (horrific as 7 October was) would make it increasingly a pariah state? And yes, they could create another traumatised generation in Palestine who would be easier to manipulate. Beyond that, I can't imagine. The Palestinian people have always been pawns in this game, it's outrageous.

User135644 · 29/10/2023 14:01

Made no sense to me what they were trying to achieve.

Israel relatiation whether you agree with it or not was always going to happen and Hamas knows the west supports Israel and Israel are armed to the teeth.

MoralOrLegal · 29/10/2023 14:04

I can only think that they were hoping for armed incursions from Hezbollah and West Bank factions. Agree that the Saudi 'normalisation' discussions are now spiked, but would that really be worth the inevitable cost?

A cynic would say that the calculations were done in Iran, and that making Israel a pariah state is worth the cost of Gaza.

pickledandpuzzled · 29/10/2023 14:04

I don’t see how Israel could have done differently. What’s happening is awful, and I don’t know whether there was a way back that was missed.

What did those marching for Palestine want to happen next?

Silence1 · 29/10/2023 14:05

Maybe they didn't think they would be so successful and they just had a strategy to remind people that Israel was not a safe place to move to and settle in nor to bring a family up in, in it's current set up.

I only thought that as it is mentioned in some of the articles I have read by Israeli strategists as the reason why Hamas now needs eradicated and Palestinians banished to Egypt.

Maybe it is a trap . The pro Israel case against a ground invasion suggests it could be a disaster and Israel will lose support internationally Fathom – Opinion | The pro-Israel case against a ground invasion of Gaza (fathomjournal.org)

Opinion | The pro-Israel case against a ground invasion of Gaza

Alan Johnson is the editor of Fathom and of Mapping the New Left Antisemitism: The Fathom Essays (Routledge 2023). He writes here in a personal capacity After what has happened anyone should be abl...

https://fathomjournal.org/opinion-the-pro-israel-case-against-a-ground-invasion-of-gaza/

Reallifelurker · 29/10/2023 14:06

Did they think this would ignite sympathetic Islamic countries to rise up against Israel and declare war. If so then that hasn't happened

Don’t be so sure. There was a report on the BBC website today that the prime minister of Iran was making comments about Israel “crossing the line”. They may wade in at some point though the US is trying to, er, persuade them not to.

A poster on another thread was saying something about this conflict somehow scuppering Israel’s diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia and Turkey. I don’t remember the details but it was on the thread about the tunnels.

Alohapotato · 29/10/2023 14:16

Hamas always said they wanted the destruction of a Jewish state and as far as I know ( I might be wrong) they have been lot of incidents from settlers hurting or killing gazans, and the other direction too.

In a country where there are so little opportunities for young men as Gaza is easy for terrorists to brainwash their population into hating the other ( in this case jews). The brutality hamas used in their attack tells me they don't see Jews as human being as them.

It is very sad because they could have a 2 state and gazans to have peace and job opportunities but terrorists don't want that, when there is peace and opportunities is more difficult to brainwashed the population. Who is going to risk their comfortable position? People just want work, safety for their families etc and if they had all of this they are not going to risk it because someone in Qatar tells them to kill their neighbours.

Alohapotato · 29/10/2023 14:17

Reallifelurker · 29/10/2023 14:06

Did they think this would ignite sympathetic Islamic countries to rise up against Israel and declare war. If so then that hasn't happened

Don’t be so sure. There was a report on the BBC website today that the prime minister of Iran was making comments about Israel “crossing the line”. They may wade in at some point though the US is trying to, er, persuade them not to.

A poster on another thread was saying something about this conflict somehow scuppering Israel’s diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia and Turkey. I don’t remember the details but it was on the thread about the tunnels.

Iran and Turkey defend Gazans. I dont think Turkey will want a war with US,UK etc but not so sure about Iran..

MajorBarbara · 29/10/2023 14:34

MoralOrLegal · 29/10/2023 14:04

I can only think that they were hoping for armed incursions from Hezbollah and West Bank factions. Agree that the Saudi 'normalisation' discussions are now spiked, but would that really be worth the inevitable cost?

A cynic would say that the calculations were done in Iran, and that making Israel a pariah state is worth the cost of Gaza.

Edited

This is how it seems to me, too.

Reallifelurker · 29/10/2023 14:35

What did those marching for Palestine want to happen next?

They’re probably more concerned with the plight of the Palestinians than the politics of the situation.

It’s starting to look like something should have been done about Hamas a while back. They’ve been in Gaza since what? 2007? Plenty of time to consolidate their forces.

eardefender · 29/10/2023 14:41

Thanks for all your comments, It still seems unfathomable.

I am not sure about the Saudi angle because i thought there was some historic beef between saudi and Iran so not sure why the saudis would be swayed to Irans pov.

Iran saying Israel has crossed a line I find sabre rattling because its just words. Its like Putin threatening nuclear war every week now for over a year.

I have seen a few interviews with Hamas leaders and i am shocked at how unimpressive they are. They deny the attacks took place which is bizarre, one also was very unconcerned and dismissive about palestinian deaths, he seemed to be accepting of the fact that if you want liberation millions must die. I found his banality monstrous. He himself looked perfectly clean, comfortable and well fed.

If we judge by the end result then are they a cult who simply want death and destruction? if so then that seems something from an unbelievable horror movie rather than real life.

Are we assuming they are trying to use armed struggle to get a state back and then they will be peaceful. Is this wrong to assume their end goal is victory and then peace. Is it the war they want, the death and the destruction is the end goal? Does that make sense.

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MoralOrLegal · 29/10/2023 14:49

@eardefender I think the point about Iran is that it would hate its enemy Saudi to normalise relations with Israel, which would bring both sides big benefits. As it is, Saudi can't continue with talks without criticism from other Arab countries (and has ditched them).

Reallifelurker · 29/10/2023 14:52

I am not sure about the Saudi angle because i thought there was some historic beef between saudi and Iran so not sure why the saudis would be swayed to Irans pov.

Iran saying Israel has crossed a line I find sabre rattling because its just words. Its like Putin threatening nuclear war every week now for over a year.

It wasn’t that Iran and Saudi were in cahoots more that Saudi and Turkey had a reasonable relationship with Israel that they now have to step back from. This probably doesn’t hurt Israel but it suits the purposes of its enemy’s.

As for Iran well you’d hope they’d stay out of it but I understand they are very anti-Israel so are the most likely candidate to back Hamas.

PermanentTemporary · 29/10/2023 15:12

The Hamas charter of 2017 maintains its aim of eliminating Israel as a state. I'd think there is an element of having eventually to take action if you keep geeing up your very young, very disadvantaged, very male followers with talk of war - they might I suppose get fed up of routinely sending missiles into Israel. Also, the best way of creating more Hamas warriors in the future is what Israel are doing now.

However, the proposed Saudi normalisation of relations with Israel was quite a major shift by all accounts. Israel has multiple close neighbours who don't recognise it at least in public as a legitimate state and use it as a regional scapegoat to deflect opposition to their own regimes.

PermanentTemporary · 29/10/2023 19:27

Mmm, that's a highly specious take on the pre-October situation in Gaza IMO, though I also agree that there are highly specious pieces written the other way.

I'm listening to the BBC Sounds documentary series Mandates, which is in 3 episodes and deeply sobering. I know the outlines of it all but I think it puts it in important context, particularly for Brits.

EasternStandard · 29/10/2023 19:31

It’s not really close to us as a system but I look at it as destruction, death are worthy and annihilation of Israel

So nothing to lose if that can be your end result or their’s

At some point you say go

drspouse · 29/10/2023 19:43

You get population pyramids like that with a high birth rate. You don't necessarily need a very low life expectancy.

I assumed Hamas is behaving like this because ideology matters more than their population or common sense. But TBF I am reading The Running Grave.

Fallenangelofthenorth · 29/10/2023 19:48

pickledandpuzzled · 29/10/2023 15:19

This is interesting, about the young population and conditions there! There’s so much that doesn’t make sense about this situation.

https://medium.com/@nocapsherlock/why-does-gaza-have-a-low-median-age-ef67b2fdf11f

That's very interesting, thanks for the share.

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2023 20:51

el-Baghdadi put a few comments about this on his threads:

Hamas's stated objectives for their Oct 7 operation were:
- Release Palestinians in Israeli prisons
- Stop normalization pacts between Israel & Saudi
- Punish Israel for violations/attacks on Palestinian holy sites
- (there was a fourth objective I can't find rn)

Most coverage of Hamas's attacks in Western media have focused on the atrocity factor (the mass killings & kidnapping of civilians). Virtually none have actually covered it from a military strategy standpoint. But it's important to look at that to get a full picture.

Hamas's attack was very well coordinated and meticulously planned. They first used drones to take down surveillance systems on the border fence, rendering them "blind", then moved bulldozers to knock down sections of the fence. Other fighters used tunnels. Others used paragliders

Israel had relied upon high tech surveillance including tunnel detection systems for the security of the Gaza border fence. Hamas seems to have dug deeper than these systems can detect. The tunnels they dig across the border seem to be one-use only and are abandoned afterwards

Their first targets were intelligence posts, police stations, and IDF points. They knew exactly where to hit and how long it'll take them to encounter a response. Their fighters were able to operate within enemy territory for > 24 hours, meaning they were well supplied

Why is this important? Because we want to understand what Hamas was expecting as an Israeli response. Was it expecting or planning on a ground invasion? Or did they think this will be a kidnap operation that will be followed by bombing and then negotiations and a prisoner swap?

There are indications & early statements suggesting that Hamas's attack was more successful than they had expected. In one statement I came across: "The army collapsed as we attacked, what do we do in this situation? So we just pressed forward as far as we could"

Other statements suggested that the wanton massacres and atrocities that followed as being the result of them running out of targets and trying to just gain as many hostages as possible. Basically a coordinated military op descended into an unimaginably bloody massacre.

And then later in another thread

There were questions about whether Hamas political leadership would have known about the attack.

On this I generally deferred to this interview by a respected researcher who thinks the political leadership did not know and were only informed shortly before
(There's a link to tweet with newsnight section on this but I can't link from my phone).

That link goes on and uses this:
https://ecfr.eu/special/mena-armed-groups/hamas-palestine/

It an EU analysis of Hamas's structure and goals. Basically there's moderates

This makes the point that
Broadly, Hamas has three main factions: hardliners, who adhere to a strict Islamist ideology and are more willing than others to resort to violence; moderates, who seek engagement with the international community by softening the movement’s positions and prioritising non-violent resistance; and pragmatists, who try to do what works in the here and now, including both violent and non-violent activity.

el-Baghdadi continues:

There was also this illuminating additional context by a Palestinian commentator who talks about how the military wing of Hamas has really been the one in charge since 2006.

In response to the newsnight analysis
Hamee Attar AT hamattar
This isn't the case; I'm sorry. Hamas, the political movement, became entirely a follower of its military wing in 2003 (Yassin & Rantisi's Assasi.,). Al Qassam brought Hamas to power in 2005 and saved them in 2007 against the PA. There was a chord that syncs the political and military actions, and it faded away.
Hamas was excluded from the operational level that is meant to serve a political aim, and the timing, tactics and red lines of the attack on the 7th of October were drawn by Al Qassam. Now, Hamas leaders in the diaspora need to find solutions.

el-Baghdadi also says:
Several questions about the atrocities committed on Oct 7. I'm preparing another thread on this but there are now many reports by credible journalists that make it impossible to deny that horrific atrocities were committed on that day.

Israel says Hamas planned every single atrocity from the start. Hamas says some of the worst atrocities were done by other opportunistic parties from Gaza that used the border fence breach to go on a rampage. They also say that at least some of the civilian deaths were due to a disorganized and heavy-handed IDF response.

Like I said I have another thread coming on this but at this point I don't think anybody who's objective can doubt that Hamas committed serious war crimes that day.

So various opinions on this, but Hamas had several strategic goals.

Further to this basic point, there are a range of voices even within Hamas, not everyone in Hamas approved the attack, the attack was better executed than anticipated and Israeli resistance smaller which let to some poorly disciplined / hardliners going on a rampage rather than stick to the plan. Hamas isn't necessarily as cohesive as people might think and may have various players with their own goals and agenda.

All of which makes the whole thing make a lot more sense rather than 'hamas decided and planned a rampage of brutal war crimes' as per the Israeli narrative.

Vinniepolis · 29/10/2023 21:05

I don’t know of this has any bearing on this, but I once worked for a construction company that did a lot of work in the Middle East, and was told that health and safety was non-existent there because whether you lived or died on site was God’s will and pesky humans shouldn’t get involved by trying to prevent it. So could it be similar with Gaza - we (Hamas) will do X, and the impact on Palestinian civilians is kind of up to God, ie not our fault guvnor!