The double standards of free speech on Palestine amid Israel’s war on Gaza

[Ohlalalalala]

On UpFront, Marc Lamont Hill speaks to Dima Khalidi, director of Palestine Legal, and Ilan Pappe, renowned author and professor of history at Exeter University, about the limits to free speech on the Israel-Gaza war.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/program/upfront/2023/10/27/the-double-standards-of-free-speech-on-palestine

As the war in Gaza continues, why is the West cracking down on free speech?
A battle is playing out in the realm of public opinion on Israel’s war on Gaza.

While demonstrations have taken place across the globe in solidarity with Palestinians, there have been campaigns to silence critics of Israel’s actions.

Commentators, academics and even common citizens have reported increasing threats and retaliation for expressing their views or voicing solidarity with the Palestinian people, often in countries that proclaim to uphold values of freedom of expression and democracy.

I think it's because they back Israel, so they don't want too many negative things being published about Israel.

Anyone remember the ridiculous dubbing of Sinn Fein leaders? I think there's an element of:

Righteous cause but no resources. Fighting a larger, stronger enemy. Can't fight traditionally, don't have access to democratic processes to help. You end up with a terrorist/freedom fighter/guerrilla arm. Once you have that, any time anyone mentions the righteous cause you can shout WE DON'T LISTEN TO TERRORISTS.

See:

The ANC, IRA, Sandinistas, Black Panthers, Viet Cong, PLA, FMLN and so on. Right or not, once someone is fighting it gives everyone who has a reason to dismiss the cause the ability to use that against you. And censor you.

Of course if you don't fight sometimes you'll just be killed slowly and no one will listen anyway. So there's that choice.

I remember the ridiculous dubbing of the Sinn Fein leaders.

The media weren't allowed to broadcast what Sinn Fein were saying so they broadcast them saying it, with an actor saying the words instead. It was ludicrous.

because you're only allowed free speech if you don't threaten those who have free speech.

@MrsTerryPratchett @NotSuchASmugMarried the dubbing is just ludicrous! Didn't know about that; thanks for sharing.

Thanks @MrsTerryPratchett your analysis is spot on. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

Or as my professor used to say, "a terrorist is someone you disagree with fighting in a country you've heard of. A freedom fighter is someone you agree with fighting in a country you've heard of. A guerrilla is someone fighting for a cause you don't understand in a place you can't find on a map".

The first causality of war is truth and never has that been more true. Everyone is lying in this conflict, all the time. But making it so that we can't even hear or see one point of view is deeply disturbing. The censorship with the communication blackout is extremely worrying.

The communication blackout is scary on two fronts. Firstly of course no one knowing what’s going on means Israel can get away with anything. But secondly I’m just scared the world will move on to the next news story and forget the horror that is still happening in Gaza

The first causality of war is truth and never has that been more true.
That is absolutely true. The truth gets buried in a shit storm of lies.

There are 'right' countries and 'wrong' countries (or territories) and there's an assumed binary that the former kind can do no wrong at all. Possibly, they can do 'what they believed to be right at the time' and later 'lessons can be learned', but they never deliberately do anything wrong whatsoever. We can know when a country fits into the 'right' category, as that country will tell us.

There's one country I can think of (they claim to be a democracy, but nobody has ever been allowed to vote for the ultimate head - I won't name the country in case anybody accuses me of being anti-British) where they used what they later admitted to be known lies to justify militarily attacking a far less wealthy and much less developed country and killing thousands of their innocent civilians. Their friends in another very rich 'simply cannot possibly ever be the baddies' country was right behind them in this.

Of course, being a democracy, when it came to light what humanitarian atrocities this lying leader had been directly and deliberately responsible for, they... gave him a knighthood.

Many claim democracy but your free speech only exists as long as you agree with them.

Many claim democracy but your free speech only exists as long as you agree with them.

Very well summarised. Look at the arrests and detainments of the people at the coronation peacefully holding 'Not My King' placards, to democratically state their opinion of the new unelected leader.

You only have to look at the thread police on here to know that there is no freedom of speech

I think you have to contextualise it, many countries have seen a rise in anti semetic incidents. There is a pretty reasonable concern that in such a febrile atmosphere a minority of people will think it’s fine to do something much worse than protest. I think in the UK there have been individual protesters that have glorified the attacks on Israelis which is pretty vile.

I think that there needs to be an understanding that people should be free to show solidarity with Palestinians but any person glorifying violence or inciting hatred should face severe repercussions. I don’t think banning protest is ok but I can understand policing these can be an utter headache.

So I guess it depends what you want to say, to say we have free speech is not true is it. It’s that whole argument over “from the river to the sea”, I understand that to be calling for the destruction of Israel which could be seen as hate speech and incitement to violence. Or the more explicit “gas the Jews” from the Australia protests.

Thank you. Wise words indeed.

Thanks for your input.

We will not forget.

🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸

So it's up to us to say the truth, no? As a human and especially a mum I've never been so shaken by what I saw on SM. Whenever I see my children I remember the thousands being massacred mercilessly in plain sight with the complicity of our government. Not in my name.

So sad.

You're talking about Blair and the Iraq War, right? It's not a secret at all and saying what you said doesn't make you/ me anti British at all. I am British and I am not afraid to say it. He's a hypocritical liar who is responsible for the deaths of countless people. The irony is that he was appointed as Middle East Peace Envoy! I almost choked on my coffee when I heard that. They take people for idiots don't they?

Yup. Sad isn't it?

Obviously no one is condoning violence against anyone as is very very clear. My OP is specifically about:

Commentators, academics and even common citizens have reported increasing threats and retaliation for expressing their views or voicing solidarity with the Palestinian people, often in countries that proclaim to uphold values of freedom of expression and democracy.

I very much believe in free speech. But in order for speech to be free you have to say what you mean without intimidating others into silence. Or it turns to threats or harassment.

This means I think you can talk about the situation in Palestine and the oppression. You can talk about Hamas and what their objectives are and how they came to power.

The problem arises when you start to say you agree with Hamas and it's methods and you want to kill Jews or Jews deserve what they get. (Which is what Hamas do believe so if you say you support them it gets problematic). There is a difference between sympathising with the Palestinians, understanding their right to defend themselves and explaining why they perhaps can't just protest peacefully and have no choice but to resort to more aggressive resistance and then going as far as saying you support Hamas and think what they are doing is right.

Likewise I think you can discuss Israel and it's right to defend itself etc etc. What you can't do is say all Gazans are terrorists and support Hamas and therefore deserve it. And then start talking about killing Arabs or Muslims. And I take issue with the Israeli government because this seems to be their current official line.

The problem isn't the subject matter, but the extremism and the racism. And the disinformation. Free speech is not a licence for disinformation nor abusing others.

I very much believe it's essential that people are allowed to speak because it's the best way to get people to understand the problems.

But the emotion levels, which are understandably high, often don't lend themselves to this. And I do think at times people push the point about free speech as a way to abuse people rather than to talk about issues. It's the difference between ad hominem attacks (to an individual or collective) and discussing the actual problem itself.

I generally feel that MN do a decent job over this issue because that tends to be the way they definite when deletions happen. Though I have been frustrated by certain conversations and how they got deleted.

I think it's been made harder online recently because of the online harms law.

I find the Israeli communications black out appalling. It is even worse that they gone nuts at Elon Musk saying he will support starlink services to recognised international aid agencies in Gaza so they can contact their workers and have blacklisted him for this. It's a total disregard for humanity that sits at the heart of that little cluster. It undermines their entire argument that they are just defending themselves.

There are some mumsnetters who are here specifically to report threads they do not agree with even if there is absolutely nothing against the rules in the said threads. But MNHQ are aware of it and if ever you have a thread hidden because of those malicious reports, please get in touch with MNHQ and they will reinstate it after having a look.

Agree.