The historic role of the UK in the conflict and our responsibility

[Hullobaby]

I have Palestinian and Israeli friends so have always been interested in the issues in the region but was still very ignorant about a lot of the history so have been reading up.

As the previous coloniser if Palestine the UK government seems to have basically signed over land to create a Jewish state without any regard to those already living on the land. I know a lot then happened to get us to where we are today but shouldn't we have some responsibility to at least attempt to sort out the absolute fucking shit show that is now going on?

[quantumbutterfly]

I believe that is what a lot of western governments are trying to do, though western diplomacy in the middle east is not popular among all middle eastern countries to say the least. We are culturally quite different.

[Maireas]

You have Palestinian and Israeli friends, what do they say when you've discussed it?.

[Tabbygabby]

@quantumbutterfly

I believe that is what a lot of western governments are trying to do, though western diplomacy in the middle east is not popular among all middle eastern countries to say the least. We are culturally quite different.

Pretty much this.

Keen to hear your suggestions for what we should be doing though?

[PicturesOfDogs]

The problem is the Jewish population aren’t really ‘colonisers’ as such, not in the way that’s generally meant when the words used, as they are indigenous to that area of the world.

6 million Jewish people had been killed in the holocaust, had been routinely displaced throughout the world, and had no ‘home’ so ‘we’ probably thought we were doing the right thing by helping this displaced population return to their land of origin.

I think in any other situation, that would have been seen as the ‘right’ and ‘moral’ thing to do.

Its just not black and white as I’m sure we all wish it was

[Huwipulotu]

Most Jewish people are not indigenous to that part of the world!

the Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs are genetically identical but the Jewish diaspora which “returned” to Palestine are genetically different and most certainly not indigenous

thr land where over 90% of people were Muslim has been colonised by a British/Jewish coalition post WW1 (and I’m saying Jewish as Israel did not exist until 1947)

the idea that these colonisers had any right to land that they had not occupied for 2000 years is ridiculous.

but I also strongly believe that Jewish people DO need a state due to the horrific levels of antisemitism they have faced during these 2000 years culminating in the Holocaust. I just wish it had been done with consideration of the Palestinians. Not only have Israel not done it without consideration, they are commiting genocide, ethnic cleansing and demonstrating hugely islamophobic views whilst yelling “you are an anti-Semite!!!” At anyone who dares to criticise the state of Israel.

it is sickening. And I hope the current Israeli government are tried for war crimes at The Hague. They are fucking animals.

[WatTyler]

MNers unsure about the history of this part of the middle east may find this clip helpful: s
Note Palestine was not 'free' before WW1 but had been part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey, basically) for over 200 years. Great Britain were in no sense colonisers but were given a mandate to govern the area by the League of Nations after WW1, when the Ottoman Empire was broken up, hence 'Mandatory Palestine'.

[RudsyFarmer]

The problem with ‘colonisers returning land’’ is which generation of people are we handing the land back to? The people that owned it before us? The people who owned it before that? The original indigenous people? It’s a messy old business and literally what wars were fought over.

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

the Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs are genetically identical

I think you mean Mizrahi ( although some Sephardic Jews too maybe). Ashkenazim are from Eastern Europe.

[Huwipulotu]

Great Britain were in no sense colonisers but were given a mandate to govern the area by the League of Nations after WW1, when the Ottoman Empire was broken up

bullshit. Sykes-Picot?? France and British were planning the division of the Ottoman Empire during the war.

and the Allies only won in the region. BECAUSE THE ARABS FOUGHT ON THE SIDE OF THE ALLIES AND AGAINST THE OTTOMANS

the McMahon letters show how Britain was promising these Arabs a land to be called “greater Syria”

but the Neitish were also promising the Zionist Jews - Led by Chaim Weizmann - a Jewish state - the 1917 Balfour agreement

so its simply lying to suggest the League of Nations (who btw effectively caused WW2) gave Britain Palestine.

puritanical Christians and a Zionist Jews in the early 20th century absolutely shafted the indigenous Palestinian population.

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

Anyone who wants to know about British involvement/responsibility should read this, which is specifically about the Mandate

[Huwipulotu]

@StarbucksSmarterSister

you are right. I stand corrected. But my point remains - most Jewish Israelis are not genetically related to people indigenous to the region.

[Peterpiperspickledpepper]

@Huwipulotu I’ve heard some crap spouted but some of that takes the proverbial biscuit. I’ve not commented much on the whole conflict but your shouting, deliberate misinformation and belligerence just turns people off and shuts down discussion (which obviously is what you want).

[Fordian]

At the time of Jesus,how many of the local population were Muslim?

None. Islam happened 600 years later.

[Maireas]

"The League of Nations caused WW2"?!
No, I think we can squarely blame Nazi Germany. The League of Nations were somewhat ineffectual, but did not cause a war....

[Huwipulotu]

@Maireas

"The League of Nations caused WW2"?!
No, I think we can squarely blame Nazi Germany. The League of Nations were somewhat ineffectual, but did not cause a war....

You really need to have a better understanding of what the allies did at end of WW1 which resulted in the rise of the Nazis

contrast what happened at end of WW2 and the Marshall plan - aimed at rebuilding germany and Japan.

@Peterpiperspickledpepper please be specific rather than say I’m lying. Are you disputing Skye’s Picot, Balfour, McMahon letters? Are you disputing that Chaim Weizmann worked with UK government to help establish a Jewish state? Are you disputing that the Arabs fought on side of Allies against Ottomans (made
famous in Lawrence of Arabia movie).

inwould suggest you are trying to shut down argument by simply stating I am lying rather than actually challenging the facts I’ve set out.

[Maireas]

@Huwipulotu I don't need a better understanding, thank you. I've been teaching this topic A level for about 30 years.
You said that the League of Nations caused WW2. They did not.

[lavender2023]

@Huwipulotu

Most Jewish people are not indigenous to that part of the world!

the Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs are genetically identical but the Jewish diaspora which “returned” to Palestine are genetically different and most certainly not indigenous

thr land where over 90% of people were Muslim has been colonised by a British/Jewish coalition post WW1 (and I’m saying Jewish as Israel did not exist until 1947)

the idea that these colonisers had any right to land that they had not occupied for 2000 years is ridiculous.

but I also strongly believe that Jewish people DO need a state due to the horrific levels of antisemitism they have faced during these 2000 years culminating in the Holocaust. I just wish it had been done with consideration of the Palestinians. Not only have Israel not done it without consideration, they are commiting genocide, ethnic cleansing and demonstrating hugely islamophobic views whilst yelling “you are an anti-Semite!!!” At anyone who dares to criticise the state of Israel.

it is sickening. And I hope the current Israeli government are tried for war crimes at The Hague. They are fucking animals.

Half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi/Sephardi now. Many are descended from the Jews expelled from Arab countries who had nowhere to go. And of the Ashkenazi Jews, many also fled from soviet union where they were facing discrimination.

Jews from Britain/USA/other western countries aee actually a minority (in total 5% based on stats). Anyway there is no point rejecting the existence of a 70 year old sovereign state(albeit one with nuclear weapons). They are not going anywhere, Jews living in Israel are now 50% of the global Jewish population.

What is done is done.. we cannot correct every single historic injustice. Anyway what is important is what we do going forward.

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

@Huwipulotu

@StarbucksSmarterSister

you are right. I stand corrected. But my point remains - most Jewish Israelis are not genetically related to people indigenous to the region.

Around half or just over are actually Mizrahi. I think Sephardim are about half that. (They were in Spain as early as the 3rd century, where do you think they came from before that? ) Plus mixed Ashkenazim with the other two groups.

Many Jews never left the Middle East and a lot of those in MENA returned to Israel post 1948 when they were "encouraged" to leave the countries they had settled in as part of the Diaspora.

The idea that they all originated elsewhere is part of the "Jews are white" myth.

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

Lavender2023

Cross posted. 🙂

[Rolypoly2961]

I am reading this https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/jeremy-bowen/the-making-of-the-modern-middle-east/9781509890897 as I knew little of the history. From what I have read so far, GB definitely have some responsibility for the mess.

[NotSuchASmugMarried]

Israel will do what they like. There's nothing that will make them do something the uk suggests just because we said so.

[Sugaristheenemy]

I’m not really sure what the UK can do? It’s probably more an issue for the UN but even then peace talks are the only real intervention I can think of (apart from aid). Have there been any since the Oslo accords?

[marmaladeandpeanutbutter]

Private Eye today

[RudsyFarmer]

Have the UN succeeded in convincing Putin to stop his Ukraine invasion yet?