Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conception

When's the best time to get pregnant? Use our interactive ovulation calculator to work out when you're most fertile and most likely to conceive.

would you consider cloning?

48 replies

tigermoth · 30/12/2002 09:05

I have to admit the idea of giving birth to a clone of me or my dh fills me with dread - for all sorts of reasons however I read an interesting article in Sunday's Independent which has really challenged my views. The argument (edited by me since I can't do links yet - must swot up on this asap) put forward by Dr Anthony Grayling, a reader in philosoply at Birkeck College is as follows:
**
At the moment practical difficulties with reproductive cloning need solving before it is a viable alternative, but if they are, is the principle still wrong? There are three issues: the nature of the clones, the ethics of reproductive technology and the point of parenthood.

A clone is an identical twin. Older siblings often help bring up younger siblings - so the idea of a cloned child loses its much of its power to generate a science fiction frission. Women unable to have children by any other means would be bearing their own or their partner's twin. There is nothing unnatural about the idea of idntical twins or sibling relationships, so there is nothing objectinabel about the relationship of a cloned child with its family.

An objection to using technology in reproduction would logicically embrace in vitro fertilisation and doner insemnation. But all these technologies have the aim of helping women to have children, women who so want children that they submit themselves to the effort, expense and dificulty of the process and who therefore might be expected to be highly committed mothers any sustainable objections melt away.

But if you take the religious stand that nothing must be allowed to interfere with natural birth, you are left with the harsh view that if a woman can't give birth by natural means, she must accept the fact and remain childless. To be consistent with this view, treatment for eclampsia, amniocentesis, epidurals, caesarian section are wrong since they are all human interventions in the reproductive process.
The result in human suffering of the absance of such aids are easy to see in the Third World.

As for the idea of parenthood, is not the wish to have a cloned child a self regarding hunger to have a child at any price? This question misses the point of parenthood. It fails to distinguish between the question of why conceptions happen and why parenthood happens. Many conceptions happen by accident but if there is a birth it will usually be because the child is wanted as much as if the conception was planned. If it is unwanted, a termination is available to most. The biological drive which prompts women to have children is well served by the desire to be a parent. The desire is so powerful that when it is frustrated it can be the source of great grief. Reproductive technology helps the really keen. They are likely to make great parents.

There is nothing unnatural about the achievements of human intelligence, itself a product of nature. They can be used for good or ill. Everything human is open to abuse, including cloning. But society can do its best to minimise abuses while reaping the benefit of advances in our understanding of the world, especially those that make it a better place.
**

It left me thinking - identical twins, siblings bringing up siblings - when I think about this I have to agree with the line of argument above. It's not in the least bit unnatural. Also reproducitive technology - when used wisely I cannot argue against the idea that it is a good thing. Am left wondering if we can trust 'society' to monitor cloning and minimise abuses of this technology.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
Bobbins · 30/12/2002 09:41

I was laughing very hard this morning. I have never watched GMTV before....(honest...I'm usually working!) but this morning they had a segment about the cult woman, who is supposedly at the forefront of genetic science....what was their comment?....."well at least she could have done her roots!"

Perfect

Bobbins · 30/12/2002 09:45

sorry, that was flippant and off thread...but I enjoyed it

Bobbins · 30/12/2002 10:05

I just hope the baby doesn't suffer from all this.

I was watching a documentary called 'Darwin's Child at 5am this morniing. She died, and he had a son that died also, probably had Down's ...His wife was very religous but he started thinking..... philisophically I suppose, (and obviously caused a big kerfuffle like Galileo) about natural selection, to try and explain why it had happened to them. How is evolution gonna go if we can clone?

Sorry it's been a tough year and the whole thing is getting to me mentally, so I'm probably making NO sense

tigermoth · 30/12/2002 10:31

That's a good point bobbins, how do you explain to your child that they are an exact clone of you? Would the idea that they are just like an identical twin but born, say, 30 years apart screw them up? It would be spooky, to say the least, looking at your parent aging, knowing that chances are you would have the same wrinked face in years to come, as well as the same weaknesses and faults that you come to see in your parent - think how critical teenagers can be about their parents and how they console themselves with the belief that they will never be like them.

But then, I've met identical twins who are the same but very different too - nature versus nurture. And from looks to talents, isn't there an element of choice in what you, as an individual, choose to do with yourself? so a cloned child does not have to be an exact replica of its parent.

OP posts:
Bobbins · 30/12/2002 10:51

yep, a good point...but badly made.
I just think we are messing with something a bit too dangerous.

Darwin thought that the reason why his children died was because he was too genetically similar to his wife, she was his first cousin. So what happens when your genes are exactamundo to your progeny? Only the fittest will survive & all that. Perhaps miscegenation is the way to go not cloning.
I need to think about this more, and stop worrying about whether or not that woman gets her roots done.

Looks like I have been watching too much telly.

I'll get back to you

GeorginaA · 30/12/2002 12:34

My main concern with the technology is that it is not perfected yet. Cloned animals have had severe defects due to the process and have not survived very long. Is it ethical to use human beings as "experiments" in a very new technology when we don't really understand the repercussions? I don't really have issues with the theory of a cloned child (although I admit to feeling a little uneasy - I don't think I would choose to do it myself), but I do have many issues with the technology being used so early on.

Another thought, I hope there's going to be good record keeping - could make forensics and genetic fingerprinting in criminology a bit more complicated...

ScummyMummy · 30/12/2002 12:44

Really difficult one, I think. Intuitively it sounds a bit horrible to me. I think I'd be pretty screwed up watching a cloned child of mine grow up, so goodness only knows how the child's mental health would suffer. Already I find the aspects of myself that I'm not so happy with most difficult to deal with when I see them mirrored in my children.
I have non-id twins and I must admit I'm quite pleased that they are not identical because I think it must be so hard to parent id twins, lovely as they often are... My experience of friends who are/have id twins is that there are problems- with identity and comparison- to be negotiated above and beyond the norm as well as very special, unique joys. How far would these issues be exacerbated if your genetically identical "twin" was also your mum or dad, or, conversely, your son or daughter, I wonder?
Then again, I have been lucky enough not to have experienced unsuccessfully trying to conceive, so can only imagine desperately longing for a child. I do have considerable sympathy for people in this position. Also, identical genes obviously don't translate into identical consciousnesses so perhaps all the worrying is hoo-ha...

aloha · 30/12/2002 12:46

I think the reason why Darwin lost two children is because he and his wife had ten of them in Victorian times - pre-vaccination and antibiotics. I think to only lose two was good going. I think we all look for 'reasons' for tragedies. I doubt very much this loony cult has succeeded. If they have (or Professor Antinori (SP?) in Italy) then this can only be wrong. So far all cloned animals have had awful problems including accelerated ageing. It is a terrible thing to use human babies as part of experiments like this. I also worry about the motivation of potential parents who want cloned children (esp if they are clones of dead siblings). What an awful burden to put upon a child.

anais · 30/12/2002 20:21

A lot of good points have been made here - some that I have not considered before.

As a single mum - someone who depserately wants to have more children, and is not in the position to do so - I have some idea how it must feel to be unable to concieve. And I already have 2 beautiful children. This desire to have children is overwhelming, so I can understand women being prepared to go to great lengths to have babies.

But, IMO, cloning is a step too far. So far we don't know the long-term outcome - and what we have seen is not encouraging. Most of the animal clones which have been 'created' so far have had problems, and as has already been said, we are treating these babies as experiments.

I find the whole thing quite sickening. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong. Even without the potential physical problems, I think the ethical issues override all else. We are playing with fire. It's dangerous stuff and we shouldn't be playing gos with this sort of thing. Its going to end in tears.

willow2 · 30/12/2002 21:00

Bobbins - re roots comments. Have to say that my first thought was if they had the technology to clone a child they should also have the technology to apply make-up better or, failing that, find a better cosmetic surgeon. (Did you see her? We are talking the Michael Jackson school of self improvement).

janh · 30/12/2002 22:21

oh dear. I am with willow and bobbins re the roots (what a GHASTLY looking woman but that shouldn't matter, no no no) but then tonight I was watching a prog on one of the health channels re IVF etc etc - one poor couple where he could only manage 12 sperm (literally) and then the embryos went peculiar once they started dividing and bits dropped off.

It is hard, when one has never problems conceiving (beyond 2 or 3 months of frustration which I know is nothing to some people) to put oneself in the place of those who have - but still the idea of cloning makes me cringe and squirm. It is possible to have a baby by artificial means eg AID without going down the cloning route, if you believe they have done it, which I don't, frankly. How egocentric would you have to be to be to think that was the best thing to do?

tigermoth's quoted piece about twins/siblings still does not justify cloning humans - it is extremely unnatural. An egg + a sperm is the way nature does it; even if the egg/sperm combination subsequently divides, that is normal, or if 1 or 2 parents die and one child brings up another that is normal too, I mean the participants are. A sperm or an egg plus a cell from some other bugger is not normal. I look forward with interest to seeing proper, objective, scientific "proof" (ie I don't believe for a minute it will be forthcoming).

robinw · 31/12/2002 01:20

message withdrawn

tigermoth · 31/12/2002 11:09

I'm with you on the intuitive turn off to cloning oneself. From the cloned child's point of view, what a burden to bear.

At the moment it's also easy to say no to cloning - the technology, as far as I know, isn't there yet, as Georgina points out. But what it it was? Hmm...

But to perfect the technology you would, presumably, need to experiment on humans and I wouldn't be happy with that. But what if men's sperm counts generelly decrease, aren't they on a downward spiral at the moment? what if 12 sperm is good going?

One thing that struck me, a while ago there was a conversation here about sperm donated children not knowing their family roots, and how wrong that might be. And here we have the possiblity of cloned children knowing their family roots only too well. Wrong again?

Talking of roots, I thought the doctor's hair was quite nice in a Geri spicegirl kind of way. Assuming she had plastic surgery, agree willow, why? she must have had the contacts to have it done better. Still, as it stands, her natural clone would look in no way related to her. Perhaps a point she wants to make?

Janh I think you made a good point about the way the birth happens - cloning isn't natural at the point of conception, even if the identical twin/ sibling family relationship that follows is. One reason to back up to my gut feeling that cloning is wrong. But after reading this article I am still not as sure about this as I was.

OP posts:
GeorginaA · 31/12/2002 13:17

Yes, thanks for posting the article, tigermoth. Has certainly made me think more carefully about the issue and I don't think it's a straight-forward black and white (is there anything left anymore that's black and white?!! Please! I'd just like to be certain about something ).

robinw · 31/12/2002 18:11

message withdrawn

tigermoth · 31/12/2002 18:28

robin, happy new year, if this catches you in time

I believe you should touch up your roots about every six weeks. That's if you don't want any grey to show. Personally, though, I don't mind if this happens.

I use a so called 'permanent' hair dye and massage the dye into my roots only for the first 20 minutes, then all over for the next 10 minutes then rinse and condition, every eight weeks or so - I try to spin it out because my hair is so fine and weak and I want to damange it as little as possible. I would rather have grey roots than no hair at all!

Funnily enough I will shortly be spending new years eve doing just this, since my head is flecked with grey and we have a new years day party to go to.

OP posts:
robinw · 31/12/2002 18:48

message withdrawn

lou33 · 31/12/2002 18:53

Robin I have been dying my hair since I was 13, and I will be 36 this week! If you tell me what type/make of dye maybe I can help you. Am currently dark purple but looking for a change. I've been everything from pink to blonde over the years so it's going to be hard to find somrthing new for me though , happy new year all of you.

tigermoth · 31/12/2002 19:08

dark purple Lou33? You'll have no trouble cojnvincing that top shop sales assistant that you are young and hip

Robin, just to say swimming can bleach the colour a little. ime - all that chlorine in the water, so you'll need to wear a hat.

As far as I know, permanent dyes do not strip the colour first but should be used with some caution if you have fine, thin, hair like mine. Also, boring , but best to do, if you have never used the brand of dye before - a strand test.

Also avoid red shades if you want the colour to last. Ime red shades fade after a few weeks and can look brassy. Unless that is the effect you want

I love the way my hair thickens up after I have dyed it though - worth all the effort. Even my poor weak hair can withstand dying in moderation so it's a valued part of my hair routine.

Good luck!

OP posts:
janh · 31/12/2002 20:49

I love the way the loony cloners thread has turned into a discussion on grey hair dye!

For what it's worth...I used to do things to my hair when it was first going grey but, having been through chemo with most of my hair dropping out (I had a bit left all over, but v thin and pathetic) and then having some very strange stuff growing back - I mean I had dark wavy vertical hair growing up through thin pale dangly hair, what my hairdresser called "sprutting", it was growing in all directions, very weird! - I am very happy now to have my own, more or less completely grey, more or less straight hair growing in a fairly civilised style 12 months down the line! I don't like being grey but I do like not worrying about roots etc.

Don't suppose this helps those of you still fighting grey but there is light at the end of the tunnel...

Happy New Year everybody, by the way!

WideWebWitch · 31/12/2002 20:57

Yes Janh, amazing how these things morph isn't it? No time to read the rest of this but will come back to it I think. My instinct is that it's wrong (cloning, not dyeing hair). And that woman was strange looking wasn't she?

lou33 · 31/12/2002 21:15

Unfortunately Tigermoth I am convinced I look like cross between lesley joseph kat slater and pauline quirke on a bad day, although noone i know admits I do! And I am conviced I am turning into a wrinkled old prune who looks ok at a distance of 100 yards in the dark, but up close makes you want to cry!. Must be something to do wiht my birthday looming, or my general mid life crisis!

robinw · 01/01/2003 07:28

message withdrawn

Tinker · 01/01/2003 13:06

Probably wanting to create a clone of yourself would be an indicator that you shouldn't.

bossykate · 01/01/2003 14:02

sorry, i haven't read all of this, but have to say i have frequently wanted to clone myself! one of me could go to work full-time, another could stay at home full-time with ds, a third one could ooh, go shopping for clothes, sit and read a magazine, cook meals from scratch all the time