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would you consider cloning?

48 replies

tigermoth · 30/12/2002 09:05

I have to admit the idea of giving birth to a clone of me or my dh fills me with dread - for all sorts of reasons however I read an interesting article in Sunday's Independent which has really challenged my views. The argument (edited by me since I can't do links yet - must swot up on this asap) put forward by Dr Anthony Grayling, a reader in philosoply at Birkeck College is as follows:
**
At the moment practical difficulties with reproductive cloning need solving before it is a viable alternative, but if they are, is the principle still wrong? There are three issues: the nature of the clones, the ethics of reproductive technology and the point of parenthood.

A clone is an identical twin. Older siblings often help bring up younger siblings - so the idea of a cloned child loses its much of its power to generate a science fiction frission. Women unable to have children by any other means would be bearing their own or their partner's twin. There is nothing unnatural about the idea of idntical twins or sibling relationships, so there is nothing objectinabel about the relationship of a cloned child with its family.

An objection to using technology in reproduction would logicically embrace in vitro fertilisation and doner insemnation. But all these technologies have the aim of helping women to have children, women who so want children that they submit themselves to the effort, expense and dificulty of the process and who therefore might be expected to be highly committed mothers any sustainable objections melt away.

But if you take the religious stand that nothing must be allowed to interfere with natural birth, you are left with the harsh view that if a woman can't give birth by natural means, she must accept the fact and remain childless. To be consistent with this view, treatment for eclampsia, amniocentesis, epidurals, caesarian section are wrong since they are all human interventions in the reproductive process.
The result in human suffering of the absance of such aids are easy to see in the Third World.

As for the idea of parenthood, is not the wish to have a cloned child a self regarding hunger to have a child at any price? This question misses the point of parenthood. It fails to distinguish between the question of why conceptions happen and why parenthood happens. Many conceptions happen by accident but if there is a birth it will usually be because the child is wanted as much as if the conception was planned. If it is unwanted, a termination is available to most. The biological drive which prompts women to have children is well served by the desire to be a parent. The desire is so powerful that when it is frustrated it can be the source of great grief. Reproductive technology helps the really keen. They are likely to make great parents.

There is nothing unnatural about the achievements of human intelligence, itself a product of nature. They can be used for good or ill. Everything human is open to abuse, including cloning. But society can do its best to minimise abuses while reaping the benefit of advances in our understanding of the world, especially those that make it a better place.
**

It left me thinking - identical twins, siblings bringing up siblings - when I think about this I have to agree with the line of argument above. It's not in the least bit unnatural. Also reproducitive technology - when used wisely I cannot argue against the idea that it is a good thing. Am left wondering if we can trust 'society' to monitor cloning and minimise abuses of this technology.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
lou33 · 01/01/2003 14:44

Just to combine the two subjects here, you would think that someone who is claiming to have cloned a child would be able to make her dye job look a bit better wouldn't you?

Marina · 01/01/2003 20:43

Edith Boissellier is not a proper scientist (I don't think...) and the Raelians are a pack of loonies. Their recruitment record is so hopeless they are resorting to cloning themselves...aliens told her how to do it of course, hence her slightly unreal appearance - they also advised her on how earthlings dress and groom themselves.
I think cloning is very wrong at present for practical reasons alone - it's not foolproof. As others have said, Dolly has numerous anomalous health problems for her age. That's bad enough for a poor sheep but utterly unacceptable for a human child. It's Antinori who really disgusts me in all this - he is in a position, theoretically at least, to know better. Boissellier and her chums are all crackers.

janh · 01/01/2003 20:53

I don't know anything about this particular bunch of loonies, but remembering David "I am God" Icke and others like him, I suspect that these babies have all been conceived more-or-less normally by people who either believe everything they are told (brainwashing?) or who are drugged while whatever-it-is goes on.

bozzy · 02/01/2003 05:29

I think that if cloning becomes accessible, then bereaved parents would be tempted to replace their lost son/daughter with a new clone. Imagine the pressure on the new child to live up to being just like his brother/sister?? And all the progress being made about identifying criminals etc by their DNA. If there are suddenly many individuals with the same DNA...a bit of a step backwards... If I knew that cloning would be used in a "correct" manner, then I would support it. (ie to create new organs etc)...but how likely is that?

SimonHoward · 02/01/2003 10:15

I agree with Bozzy.

There are situations where cloning organs or maybe even whole people would be acceptable but not until the problems are worked out.

I unfortunately read way to much SciFi and some of the ideas that over the years people have come up with to do with cloning have made me a bit wary. Even in Star Wars look how the ability to clone is used badly by people wanting to create a 'Perfect' army of warriors.

I know that doing that sort of thing now is not possible but once on that sort of track how long will it be before some madman decides it's the best way to spread their ideas to the world?

SimonHoward · 02/01/2003 10:17

I agree with Bozzy.

There are situations where cloning organs or maybe even whole people would be acceptable but not until the problems are worked out.

I unfortunately read way to much SciFi and some of the ideas that over the years people have come up with to do with cloning have made me a bit wary. Even in Star Wars look how the ability to clone is used badly by people wanting to create a 'Perfect' army of warriors.

I know that doing that sort of thing now is not possible but once on that sort of track how long will it be before some madman decides it's the best way to spread their ideas to the world?

willow2 · 02/01/2003 10:45

wow - cloned messages

tigermoth · 02/01/2003 12:39

at least that cloned army in star wars is on the side of the republic, and was initiated by a jedi knight. However I have to agree, simon, in the wrong hands cloning could be a disaster.

OP posts:
RosieT · 02/01/2003 12:44

Are you sure, tigermoth? Wasn't paying perhaps as much attention as I should have been, but I thought the clones were being operated by the bad guys led by Count Dooku? Realise he was originally a Jedi knight, but hadn't he gone over to the dark side and become a sith? Guess I'll just have to watch it again.

ScummyMummy · 02/01/2003 17:19

Willow2

anais · 02/01/2003 20:24

Agree with Bozza about a child cloned from a dead sibling, and the pressures that would be put on him. Not ethical at all, if you ask me.

tigermoth · 03/01/2003 07:30

RosieT, I think, could be wrong, that count dooku had an army of battledroids - those insect-like robots. Must ask my sons

OP posts:
tigermoth · 03/01/2003 07:49

going back to the topic, I agree that a child cloned from a dead sibling could face impossible pressure, especially if the cloned child is born within a few years of the first. They would be entering a simialr world and pretty much the same family situation, with so many reminders of the first child. Memories would be very fresh.

However a child cloned from a parent would enter a world and a family, say, 20, 30 or even 40 years on, and might easily have a very different childhood to their identical twin parent. I wonder how much this would affect a cloned child's developement as an individual and lessen their identical-ness with their parent?

I know little about this, but hope those furthing the cause of cloning have examined how identical identical twins are, if bought up in different environments.

OP posts:
SimonHoward · 03/01/2003 10:39

The 'Bad guys' had the robot army (this was Count Dooku's side) the 'Good guys' had the army of clones.

The worrying thing is that the 'Good guys' are commanded by Senator Palpatine who turns out to be the Emperor and are the basis of the force that becomes the Stormtroopers of the Empire.

It is this worrying sort of thing where something done supposedly for good could be corrupted so easily that I find the biggest problem. It is just too easy for someone in a position of power to abuse it regardless of what is meant to happen.

RosieT · 03/01/2003 10:53

Goodness, SimonHoward, you were obviously paying a lot more attention than me! I didn't even realise they were different!
Don't like the idea of cloning in the real world, though. Too much scope for Mad Scientists doing Bad Things.

SimonHoward · 03/01/2003 12:27

RosieT

It's what comes from having a mispent youth doing things like reading endless amounts of books and watching educational programs as well as all the scifi I could get.

That and being a bit of a Star Wars fan.

RosieT · 03/01/2003 12:50

Simon

"The circle is now complete. When you left school, you were but a learner. Now YOU are the master..."

SimonHoward · 04/01/2003 17:41

RosieT

Does this mena I have to dress in black and wheeze a lot when talking?

RosieT · 04/01/2003 20:42

Simon, you mean you don't?!?
Well, you've just destroyed my lovely mental image of you...

SimonHoward · 05/01/2003 08:37

RosieT

Well I can't always dress that way. They object to it at work as it scares customers off.

GeorginaA · 09/01/2003 09:46

Back to the subject of cloning ( ) there is an interesting article in salon today:

Fun with Pig Clones

It looks like clones would still exhibit very different personalities and traits than the original gene donor. Makes for an interesting read.

Aunaturalmama · 11/10/2019 20:40

I’d consider cloning myself to have a daughter since I have 3 sons (1 step) possibly a fourth in my belly. I don’t think it would mess them up. I think you just have to communicate it with them.

Aunaturalmama · 11/10/2019 20:42

All add though that I think a world where frequent non medical cloning was a thing....it wouldn’t be a good idea. Cool to think about and I would use the technology myself if it was available

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