TTC or pregnancy on prednisolone or similar part 11

[Buzzybee123]

This is a positive thread for all those diagnosed with High or Very High NK Cells and looking to start TTC or already pregnant on Prednisolone and/or Intralipid treatment.

Newcomers very much welcome!

Thanks very much brownstag and mollieboo for the warm welcome.

brownstag I used to do BBT charting and my experience has always been the same as yours - a positive OPK result was always followed by ovulation. Louise also thought it would be really unusual to get a positive on the OPK and then not to ovulate. The blockage theory: apparently you can get scarring around the cervix after several ERPCs which can prevent the blood from AF from seeping out - most of it eventually gets reabsorbed, I'm told. (The scarring would need to be removed surgically during a hysteroscopy). I did have a scan during my last 'phantom' period and there were no obvious signs of any blood backed up in the uterus though, so I'm a bit stumped. I'm hoping against hope that my not bleeding is due to hormonal confusion in the second half of my cycle, rather than scarring. I also had an ovarian cyst and I believe that this can mess up cycles. Sigh. Just when I need things to be a bit simpler.

mollieboo I'm so very sorry to hear about your recent loss. Having a mc at any stage is always terrible but a late one must be even worse. I know just what you mean about people not acknowledging what's happened and how alienating that is. Maybe I just have unusually emotionally distant friends and family but that is sadly routine in my experience. Thanks so much for the acupuncture advice - have never tried it but am curious! Am also thinking of going back to BBT temping; I became quite fanatical about it in the past and stopped because it just made me too obsessive about ttc. Also a bit difficult at the mo as I have a toddler who regularly disrupts my sleep in the early hours so I find it difficult to do the whole 'temping at the same time every morning before you even move a muscle' bit! Enjoy having time off ttc and getting some quality of life back - 2014 isn't far away at all now.

Just popping in to say hope everyone had a good weekend. Have been thinking a lot about first appointment with Mr S on Tuesday week and wondering what the next month will bring by way of answers, doubts, and pressure of hope. In bad moments I worry that he'll either be unable to help us, or that it's now too late for me... wish I'd found out about NK cells testing a year ago, before my last two mmcs... wish I were merely 42 again as when I had DD, rather than the old crone I am now... wish and wish and wish! On the other hand, late is better than never and in a few years' time DH and I will at least be able to look back and say that we did what we could, when we could. And (cue crazily optimistic cackling) I reckon I do still have about a year of fertility left.

Sorry to witter on. Must be the effect of Monday morning. Wave to everyone!

Good luck for Tuesday, Village mum. Make sure you have pen and paper with you as I find the appointments with Mr S are like a whirlwind, over before you know it, so think carefully about everything you need to ask. Although you can always email Louise afterwards if you forget something. You will come away full of hope, I'm sure. I don't think Mr S has ever turned anyone away feeling he couldn't help. I feel like you, with a year of fertility remaining, but I am 42 now! I also wish I'd had a lap and dye two-and-a-half years ago when we started ttc again, rather than this January, as I got pregnant immediately afterwards (although miscarried a Down's pregnancy).

Thanks for the tip brownstag - will go armed with a notebook! What you write about Mr S is encouraging. I'm at that low point where I just want someone to approach the problem in a can-do way, say 'this is what we're going to try now' and in so doing give me some hope - even if it doesn't work out in the long run. I'm weary of miscarrying but even more weary of the defeatist, 'don't-care and won't risk sticking my neck out' attitudes of the specialists I've seen. So bring it on, Mr S.

I'm very sorry to hear about your Down's miscarriage. Do I remember right - are you ttc your second pred baby under Mr S's care? Why do you feel you only have a year left? (To me 42 is no age!) Sorry to fire questions at you... I'm really interested that you got pregnant quickly after your lap-and-dye and that you see it as a positive procedure. Does it help with conception by clearing out all areas, so to speak? I may have to have one (or a saline scan, same sort of thing I think) for possible cervical blockage and have a horror of the whole thing - so what you say has actually given me a lift. Thank you

Lastly, a question to anyone who has taken supplements to improve egg quality. Before this last mmc in July I began to take Royal Jelly, COQ10 and Ovaboost as well as my usual prenatal. Maybe it was just coincidence but that time our baby at 7 weeks was a normal size for dates and hb was strong too (even more crushing, then, when all had stopped by the 9 week scan). My question is: has anyone ever tried DHEA? Did you do so on your own steam, or under medical supervision? Does Mr S have an opinion on it or on other egg-boosting supplements? Grateful for any feedback.

I tried dhea and coq10 for a few months before this pregnancy so only time will tell if it has worked or not (I am 7 weeks now). That was on top of pregnacare, vitamin d3, low dose aspirin and agnus castus. Be careful with royal jelly as I have read that it can increase the killer cell count. I am in the very high category so don't take risks. Wheat and dairy can also aggravate killer cells/immune system. This was all down to my own research and not mr s though. Another thing I have been taking for a while are high grade fish oils as they are supposed to reduce an inflamed immune system.

The treatment plan I was on last summer with my pregnancy worked on mr s's plan with the extra supplements in that I got passed the miscarriage stage and the medical termination I had was nothing to do with the miscarriages. I took the agnus castus as my cycles went haywire for 7 months following giving birth/termination. I then had the amh test which said undectable egg reserve causing me to take the coq10 and dhea (and panic at the age of 41!) I had loads of advice from the ladies on here to take the micronised dhea from the USA. Its expensive but supposed to be better. I hope that helps!

I also had a hysteroscopy last April and then fell pregnant 2 weeks later so that might help you.

Forgot to say mr s told me that killer cells attack the eggs which is why my amh is low - another problem to add to the mix!!

I had uterine biopsy with Prof S and as part of that they do a uterine scratch - she said anything which causes minor trauma to the uterus promotes a healing response which improves the subsequent linings and improves fertility for the next few months. We didn't TTC first cycle awaiting for results but have got a BFP first try. Time will tell if it has helped.
A positive way to get through the indignity of invasive investigations! Good luck for your appointment.

God, Sue, that's dreadful about NK cells and AMH! Is that while they are in the ovaries or just as they are released? And how are you, Sue?
To answer your question, Village, yes I am ttc no 2. I also took DHEA for 7 months before that last pregnancy (actually that wasn't my last; I conceived again the following month but it only lasted a week). I have low AMH, which is why I feel I have only a year left. Mr S is not a fan of DHEA but I am; not only because I got pregnant on it but because it makes you feel very good mentally, at least that was my experience. I don't think Mr S has given it a fair trial. But I had awful acne on it; and I mean awful. That's gone now but it took 4 months to get out of my system, and I've restarted DHEA, but at a very low dose.
I was told by another doctor that sometimes a lap and dye serves to relax a spasm in the tubes, enabling you to conceive. They certainly found no obvious anatomical reason for me not to conceive, so that may have been the case.

Can I ask those of you who have clexane as part of your protocol when you start taking it. Prof Q says from a scan showing pregnancy is intrauterine, which EPU won't do until 5+4. RMC unit locally initially said from BFP then back-tracked. I contacted Prof Q and she said come for a scan at 5 weeks, but I can't get up to Coventry (2hrs away) this week. My GP has prescribed the clexane, I can pick it up now if I want. Does anyone know what the risks would be of taking it if pregnancy was ectopic (no reason to suspect it is, I've not had one previously) ?

Sue I never knew it attacks eggs too :( and I was on royal jelly too so wonder if that's what caused my flare- who knows! It's a shame as I do feel hopeful with the hydroxy and dhea/ restravatol but I know I'd be silly to risk another try at the mo. baking tins congrats that happened to me to but sadly a chemical but I'm sure that's due to my cells at 48%!!
Good luck village mum mr s is optimistic so I'm sure you'll feel hopeful.
Mollie I can't try til jan either so we can be ttc buddies!
Well my 19 year old has gone to uni so I feel a Lomb is missing, it wasn't ment to work out like this :( I'm off with a nasty tummy bug too :(
Waves to all x

Limb not Lomb!

Mmmm, if NK cells attack the eggs while still in the ovaries, then that's an argument for taking things like hydroxy, as they are continuous, rather than just for the 10 days a month you get with pred.

Poor mel

Thanks so much for your answers everyone.

mel hi and really sorry to hear you're having empty nest pangs, my eldest is only 12 and I already dread the day when he'll be up and off

Sue that's really helpful. I'll give the royal jelly a miss from now on - had no idea it could affect NKC count. Is it just royal jelly that's a risk, or all bee products? I've also been taking bee propolis (as per horrendous long list below). Thanks too for your encouraging words about the hysteroscopy - makes me feel much more hopeful. Just wanted to say too how thrilled I am for you being pg again after your heartbreaking late loss and that I have absolutely everything crossed for you

brownstag and sue, by the way, how much DHEA did you take?

brownstag I'm so sorry to hear about your low AMH. I've no idea what my ovarian reserve might be - all will be revealed in the next month I guess when I have the tests with Mr S. I could be running on empty already for all I know! I like the idea of DHEA providing a mental boost! So if you're going to take a supplement that Mr S doesn't sanction, is it best just to be up front about it?

I've been swallowing a heap of supplements since my mmc in December - then had another mmc in July, but as I say, they may have helped egg quality as our embryo that time seemed a normal size for dates. Let me fess up to the full list of what I've been taking:

NHP Marilyn Glenville Fertility Support for Women multivitamin (changed to Pregnacare Plus on 26/9 on Louise's advice)
High grade Omega 3 1400mg (until 26/9 when I switched to the Pregnacare Plus omega supplement - but maybe the high grade ones are better??)
Aspirin 75 mg
Vitamin C 1000mg
Vitamin D3 50 mcg (since 26/9 on Louise's advice)
Vitamin B6 50mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 100mg
COQ10 400mg
L-arginine 500mg
N-acetyl cysteine 600mg
Agnus Castus 800mg
Ovaboost
Folic acid 400mcg (making a total of 1000mcg – 400mcg in Pregnacare Plus and 200mcg in Ovaboost)
Royal Jelly 1000mg (will ditch this now!)
Bee Propolis 500mg (is this a risk too?)

Lunacy, isn't it? I got most of this list from a site called Angel Bump's Fertility Protocol at www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=226042.0 and checked it against the mc research at sites.google.com/site/miscarriageresearch/

The Ovaboost is already meant to improve egg quality; would it be safe to take in combination with DHEA I wonder? What really gets me is the DIY nature of all of this - the googling and guessing! Any advice hugely appreciated!

Wave to everyone else as I go quietly mad!

Yes, I asked Mr S about DHEA a year or so ago, he poo-pooed it, I took it anyway (75mg, the boils only started after 6 months, so hopefully you'll get pregnant before that and never need to find out; now I'm taking 10mg). When I got pregnant I told him I'd taken it. My NHS consultant was happy for me to take it. Maybe with so many of us getting pregnant on it Mr S might have changed his mind by now.
The only thing I'll say about that list is that although Mr S recommends aspirin while ttc, I've read on here that Prof Q says it can prevent implantation. That tallies with my experience of nothing happening for 2.5 years while taking it, but getting pregnant after stopping it (not sure why I did stop. Possibly because of my op and then I forgot to start again).
Also 600mg co q10 is recommended for egg quality.
I used to take 50mg B6 too for my short luteal phase, but it has got better lately without it (perhaps the co q10 giving my eggs more energy?) and 50mg is quite a lot to be taking long-term.
What is Ovoboost made of?
You can get your AMH done online by DuoFertility for £45, which is probably cheaper than Mr S would do it for.

Thanks village mum yes she's 19 so time is running out for a sibling :( why were you advised to stop Marilyn glenville vits? Interested as Ive been on those lately too :/

Hi mel, I took the Marilyn Glenville vits (and DH the formula for men) before and during my successful pregnancy with DD in 2010-11 and swore by them. Took them again during last mmc and lost my faith a bit (though that's irrational as the causes of my mmcs I'm now beginning to believe could be NK cells - tests coming in October). I've simply switched to Pregnacare Plus as that's the brand Mr S recommends, not sure if it makes much of a difference. DH is still on the MG men's formula. By the way I'm 44 but going to give the sands of time a run for their money, wishing you every bit of luck too!

brownstag you are a mine of information, thanks so much! Re aspirin: there seem to be conflicting beliefs out there. The consultant I saw after my last mmc said to take it continuously, so I have (and was reassured when Louise said the same) but I do wonder. Have read that it can help ovarian function and that the increased blood flow and circulation while ttc are all good. But then have also read that it can prevent implantation, though I assumed that was just high dose aspirin and not 'baby aspirin'! One to think about...

Thanks for the tip about B6, DuoFertility and COQ10 quantity. There is COQ10 in Ovaboost but they don't say how much, so suspect it's very little.

Here is the Ovaboost blurb:
"This unique formulation is highlighted by a trio of ingredients, myo-inositol, folic acid, and melatonin that has been scientifically proven to improve egg quality. Of course, folic acid is already well-known for its ability to prevent neural tube defects, and it is recommended that all women of child-bearing age take in a sufficient amount of folic acid. But, recent research indicates that when folic acid is given in combination with two powerful antioxidants, myo-inositol and melatonin, egg quality is significantly improved in women undergoing IVF treatments. Recent research also confirms that myo-inositol works to improve insulin sensitivity, thereby helping to promote optimal ovarian function and cycle regularity in women with PCOS.

In addition, OvaBoost includes Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which is also a powerful antioxidant. But, CoQ10 also plays an important role in energy production within egg cells. Once conception occurs, the amount of cell division that occurs to allow the egg to grown into an embryo and successfully implant into the wall of the uterus requires a tremendous amount of energy. CoQ10 works within the mitochondria (the energy powerhouse of the cell) of the egg cell to help ensure that energy production is optimal.

Finally, OvaBoost contains three additional antioxidant ingredients, Vitamin E, grapeseed extract and alpha lipoic acid, to help ensure your egg cells are adequately protected from the damaging effects of free radicals.

OvaBoost was designed specifically for trying-to-conceive women who are over the age of 30, and for women who have PCOS. However, OvaBoost is also intended to optimize egg quality and ovarian function in trying to conceive women of all ages.

The formulation for OvaBoost was developed on the basis of a large, and ever-growing, body of scientific literature that explains the underlying causes of poor egg quality and ovarian dysfunction, and points to effective and promising natural ingredients for improving egg quality and ovarian function. To see a sample of the scientific papers (all available in MEDLINE) that were reviewed and considered in the development of this product, click www.fairhavenhealth.com/ovaboost-popup.html"

Wonder if Mr S has any views on it?

Thanks umm interesting its a minefield what you should take/ not take. Not heard of ova boost either but I'm banned from taking anything at mo! I know what you mean about aspirin as I've taken it since 2010 on recommendation by rmc and then mr s but now prof quenby has told me to stop it so may as well give that a go! good luck to you too x

I read that any kind of bee product can make nk cells worse so I would avoid them. I would also be careful about taking dhea with ova boost as one might cancel out the other. I went to zita west before I got pregnant this time as couldn't fall on the mr s steroid regime. Zita west told me to stop steroids and restart from bfp, swap low dose aspirin to clexane injections at bfp too as aspirin can effect uterus lining and cause implantation failure.

Zita west have also stopped amh testing and rely more on Fsh testing. I was told by them to have my testosterone tested at my gp and then again in 3 months to see if it was worth taking dhea. Can't remember what doseage I was taking so will check later. They were happy for me to take it though. I also had intrallipids when TTC the month before I got this bfp. Was also advised to stop agnus castus when taking letrozole. I didnt do the full superovulation, just took the letroz

Have a few twinges plus feeling very bloated so that I already look 4 months pregnant. Worrying constantly that things will go wrong plus I have had a bout of diarrhoea over the last day which hasn't helped as its one of the symptoms of an ectopic pregnancy.

I read that any kind of bee product can make nk cells worse so I would avoid them. I would also be careful about taking dhea with ova boost as one might cancel out the other. I went to zita west before I got pregnant this time as couldn't fall on the mr s steroid regime. Zita west told me to stop steroids and restart from bfp, swap low dose aspirin to clexane injections at bfp too as aspirin can effect uterus lining and cause implantation failure.

Zita west have also stopped amh testing and rely more on Fsh testing. I was told by them to have my testosterone tested at my gp and then again in 3 months to see if it was worth taking dhea. Can't remember what doseage I was taking so will check later. They were happy for me to take it though. I also had intrallipids when TTC the month before I got this bfp. Was also advised to stop agnus castus when taking letrozole. I didnt do the full superovulation, just took the letrozole without any scans or hcg shot and dtd every day for over 10 days.

Have a few twinges plus feeling very bloated so that I already look 4 months pregnant. Worrying constantly that things will go wrong plus I have had a bout of diarrhoea over the last day which hasn't helped as its one of the symptoms of an ectopic pregnancy.

I won't get started on the whole supplement debate, the ladies on here know I'm on shedloads, all very carefully researched, and I've said loads on them all already so I won't bore you all again! :) , but I would just add in my tuppence worth about myo-inositol/melatonin - be careful with taking this, as I found quite a few posts that indicate this combination can interfere with ovulation. It's the melatonin that's the issue, but of course people recommend taking melatonin to boost myo-inositol.

YMMV of course, but that's why I never took the melatonin that ordered.

Ditto to sue's comment about royal jelly/bee propolis - this can boost NK cells/your immune system, as I noticed when I used to take it - my eczema/psoriasis flared up more when I was taking it.

/waves to everyone :)

Oh, and agnus castus interferes with letrozole, hence why you were advised to stop taking AC when you were on letrozole sue - AC has the complete opposite effect to letrozole, thus rendering it less effective. I swear by agnus castus, I'm not sure if that's why my cycles always return straight back to normal after a miscarriage/ERPC, but I believe it helps.

village, forgot to say ... you're a spring chicken, I'm 45 .. :) Although doing DE IVF now, but that's mostly because of the DQa issue I have with my partner than anything else.

The Ovaboost sounds very interesting. Do they reference this supposedly scientific proven claim?
But I'll never take alpha-lipoic acid again after a nasty experience years ago when I was taking antidepressants and started taking a formula called Lipocarn (acetyl l-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid) which was to improve memory. Bum trip! The two interreacted and I thought I was going mad. I may have had serotonin syndrome as the Lipocarn increases serotonin and so do antidepressants. As I lay in bed that night I could only think in mathematical concepts and geometric shapes instead of words. I also felt as if my body was rolling over continuously even though I was lying flat. I rang NHS Direct in the middle of the night and I couldn't believe that real words were coming out of my mouth instead of all the rubbish that was going on my head. It took 3 days to go back to normal completely. Never again!
There's loads of bugs about at the moment (as Mel can tell you), Sue, so I'm sure it's something like that, not ectopic. I've never heard that could be a symptom. Hope you feel better soon.

Ari, my last letrozole cycle I forgot to stop agnus castus and I only produced 1 egg, so that proves your point. An expensive mistake to make. I just assumed at the time it was my increasing resistance to stimulation. Sigh.

Sorry, Village, you already produced the evidence.