TTC 6+ months plus, part 2

[skeletonbones]

New thread as the old one was getting to 1000. So, 4 BFP's in the last thread, lets see if we can up the total considerably on this one :)

That is horrible Fatima, many sympathies and thoughts and hopes coming your way! I agree with joycep that all the important things have been said. And I wish I could find that wand, mrsd.

How annnoying about the spotting mrsd and odd as well. For me that always signals being out for the month and is followed within 24hrs by full AF, but these things are different for all of us. Oh and on general anovulatory month - I did not play, am convinced (by boobs) that I did have an egg sometime las week, as it is cd 20, that is really to be expected...

Oh madness so familiar the brain emotions disconnect at cd1-3. How irritating! I get so cross by disappointment being multiplied: first spotting (or BFN), second AF, third AF turning on all its fireworks and then someone asking about us and babies. Thankfully I have a fairly regular 14day LF, so no need to worry about all of that for another week at least :)

Waves at fellow cupboard stuffers euro and pout. So pleased there may be a kooky house on the horizon, for you and the dogs (and your OH, I suppose!) And less commuting time sounds like a wonderful idea...

And the riots are just weird and scary. I hope they will abate (and I feel lucky that there has been no unrest in my tucked away corner).

And a quick hug for x-poster nelly, GPs can be weird. I had a conversation with mine this morning (because I want to switch hospitals when we get treatment and we can, HURRAH). But for some reason best known to himself, he decided to spin the don't think about it and it will happen line on me. Never has done that before, and hopefully this was the last of it. I am so NOT IMPRESSED! And normally, he is really good about these things!!

Oh lemon that line really is the final straw, isn't it?

I have a new theory. Science is wrong. It's not one sperm meets one egg one month. It requires a few months for the sperm to join up, forming a sort of cartel. They then merge to form one super-sperm, just in time for the release of a top-class all-round Good Egg. So BFDs are not wasted months. Oh no. They are just the months required to bolster the team to sufficient amazingness, before they can perform the victory swim .

Have I gone officially mental again.

I wonder how much training nhs GPs actually get on fertility? I bet it's not much and it must be way down their list of priorities given that there are no targets or cash incentives attached to it. If there is any training it probably consists of being told to tell women not to worry and relax and it will happen.

I know that the relax line is only used because it probably will happen for most couples eventually so in an ideal world we would all relax and wait for it to happen. But time is important when it comes to having a baby, if we all had 10 years to wait then maybe we could relax a bit. I do wish doctors would be told how totally unhelpful that sort of advice is.

At least I could see a gynae directly and I am very grateful that she has never uttered the word relax. Actually, quite the opposite. From day one she has taken me seriously and agreed that it is not usual for it to take more than a year at our age. But I'm having to pay and that probably makes her keener to order lots of tests and talk about IUI and ICSI. I think I would flip out now if someone told me to relax, great advice for someone who is just starting out ttc and I was very relaxed for the first 6 months but infuriating to hear when you are so desperate and it is not happening. I know I've said this before but I can't stop thinking about what a different experience people who get pregnant within 6 months must have. I feel quite angry that I will never have that "am I, aren't I? oh I think I'll POAS anyway just to see and oh my, low and behold a BFP, well I never whoopie do!" moment.

Love the theory nelly not sure I believe it (admits to being a sciency nerd) but hey. We'll go with it for now.

And mrsd the honest answer about training must be Not A Lot... And that is not strange, considering that they get to refer the difficult cases and the unlucky ones may indeed need to wait a little longer and relax. Someone told me that the line had actually been disproved in the BMJ, must hunt down that paper and post it through my GP's letter box although he was happy to refer me after a year and happy to go with my preference for treatment hospital, so that is all really good. He just has no clue what to do with my emotional turmoil. And neither have many men, so really he is in good company.

I would like some applause, despite being the bitter jealous monster that TTC makes one after a while, I have just posted to very cute onesies to new-borns and a congratulatory card to one of the recent pregnancy announcements. I am so proud of myself. And I made lemon drizzle cake, for me, DH and dad who's joining us for dinner. Looking forward to that. I love days off!

lemondrizzle makes lemon drizzle cake . Will you save us all a piece please? Well done for sending a congratulations card, you are a better woman than me. Although I do always send little gifts for newborns but I have to admit that is sort of because it gives me an excuse to browse for stuff in baby shops.

Is there a way to use mumsnet where you only see this one thread? Because the am I / aren't I threads are starting to grate on me now and I'm worried I might storm in and reply. I think it's because I have a headache and the spotting is getting heavier and I have that crampy AF feeling. Think I need to have a and a lovely slice of your cake lemon.

And if this is AF arriving then this will have been a textbook length cycle and if I hadn't been temping and having follicle tracking scans then I would have thought it was a perfect cycle. So ladies, be warned don't assume you're ovulating just because you have normal length cycles.

Lemon - urggghh, sorry your GP said that to you too! Mine said it to me for the second time on Monday.

Nelly - it's just rubbish when you feel like it's a battle to get results and other things from the doctor.

Mrsd - a woman on MN is married to a GP and I remember she wrote on a thread saying that her husband didn't know anything about fertility... apart from that ALL women ovulate on day 14 (says it all)...Anyway, he did an extra dimploma where he learnt that not all women ovulate on day 14. I just get the feeling that actually the vast majority of people conceive within a year so why not fob off everyone for 2 years as those who are left are the people who actually need assistance.

nelly & Lemonloves I'm sorry that you both seem to be having GP issues. It makes me realise how lucky I have been with mine and also makes me worry that the next one will be rubbish!

I don't think they have any training with fertility issues beyond the medical stuff. As lovely as my GP is I was aware that she was avoiding any kind of talk that might have veered into emotions territory or a discussion about how draining it has been. This is probably a good thing because if we had I'd probably still be sat there sobbing and discussing my "feelings".

I know mrsd that gnawing feeling that you will never be one of those ladies whose AF is a day late, you POAS and bingo. I used to dream up novel ways I'd tell my DH, I'm well past all that and suspect that if I ever get a BFP he would have to be there to pick me up off the floor & administer oxygen anyway. I just want to be normal so badly.

I think that I need a good telling off because I have started to panic about not being pregnant by Christmas. The realisation that it is likely to be another Xmas minus bump is just too depressing for words.

Nelly Have you considered a book deal to outline your conception theory Toni Fertility God Weschler (is it?) watch out. That lady must be loaded. Has anybody read her book. Is there something in it or is it more snake oil and stating the obvious?

Oh God Lemon I love cake and am very jealous of your drizzling.

On another note, how long are you supposed to have EWCM for in a cycle? I have started with mine really early and am trying to work out whether that means I will ovulate super early this month (like 5/6 days early) or whether it means I will just have EWCM for 9 or 10 days rather than the usual 2 or 3.

x-posted with you Joycep waves Hope that you are alright today

Fatima so sorry about your bad news day yesterday. I don't think I can add to what others say apart from that I have heard that when you start ivf or icsi it is like a whole new start of ttc and you totally leave behind all the previous crap. Not sure if that makes any sense at all but I guess it just means that it can be exciting and positive as well as being a bit scary so not all bad. I really hope you get a bfp in the meantime. As others have said, if there are some healthy sperm then it can and does happen.

My gp knows nothing about fertility, tried to talk to him about temping and opks at my last appointment and he looked at me like I was potty. It amazed me really because apparently it's one of the most common reasons for women our age to visit the doctor so you'd think they'd have a grasp of the basics but apparently not.

pout I started with ewcm much earlier than usual this month and ended up ovulating 5 days earlier than normal. after a couple of days of ewcm I suddenly decided I'd better do an opk just in case, and it was positive. As an aside, managed another month of perfect timing which appears to have been another waste of time :( af will be putting in appearance any minute.

Re Toni welcher or whatever her name is, I have moaned about her on here before-she talks about the signs of ovulation and then says if you time it right for three cycles you really should be pregnant and if you're not you should go to the doctor. Really stressed me out! Its more for people who don't understand the biology of their cycles I think. Pretty fair to say none of us fall into that category!

Hi to everyone else x x

pout I think you might be going to ovulate early. I hope your SWI plans fit in with that . I say that because I'm sure I read somewhere that EWCM lasts from 1 day to 5 days. Do you temp or do OPKs too to confirm it?

I reckon we could co-write a book on conception that would be just as detailed as anything out there currently. And we wouldn't use the word 'relax' once in it.

Ah popcorn I remember you saying that about TW before. I'm so glad I read that when I did, because at the time I was close to buying some books. I'm so glad I didn't, as if I'd read that a year into trying, I'd have hunted her down I think . To be honest, if you use the Internet judisciously I think you can get all the information you need. That said, I like the idea of a book deal! Do you think any of these so-called fertility experts have ever actually had problems TTC?

So, as expected, once I got past the barricades, my GP was lovely and helpful. He'd made a note to call but assumed we were both away (DP was away, but just last week). Anyway he said that there are still a couple of box ticking exercises to do before he can refer, otherwise they will just kick it back. One is my vaginal swab, which I can probably do tomorrow. That's to rule out STIs I think. The other is that DP has to do a second SA, that's standard apparently even if the first is ok. Anyway he also said my progesterone result was really good - 55. he said I must have timed the test well, which I did. It was bang on 7 days before AF,and helpfully confirms too that the pains I feel mid-cycle are indeed ov pains. My day 4 bloods were ok though he was a bit vaguer on this. I remember him talking about oestrogen. What ive written down is upper end of normal, but don't remember the exact context. He said nothing to particularly worry about, and was a bit waffly about the hormones in your brain . I think I was expecting to hear about LH/FSH but that wasnt specifically mentioned?

Anyway he said that once we get the other tests completed he will refer us, I should just phone him back (via his multiple screening system, obviously!) and he will refer. He said it's normally 18 months but "can be less" for a woman over 35. Ok I'm in Scotland but I thought the whole 12 months/6 months was standard? To be fair to him. I don't think he is fobbing me off; last time I was there he brought up their guidelines on screen so I assume he is going by those? On phone so typing is hard, will reply to others later!

Thanks for the advice Popcorn and mrsd I was a bit but will assume that it is all systems go!

My SWI plan is the same as always Mrsd. Check the TV guide, instruct DP that we have "business to attend to", sit on the sofa bemoaning the fact for a bit and then hope it's over quickly. I am very, very alluring at the moment as you can probably tell
The only fly in the ointment is that I'm waiting for my Conceive Plus to be delivered. I can't believe that we are onto the second bottle and still nothing to show for it!

I've stopped temping because I was waking up at all different times and generally just stressing about it all. I might start again but have assumed that when cervical mucus has been really dry and tacky for a few days that it must be game over. I really hope that I'm right otherwise it may explain a few things Having said that the month I temped did seem to confirm what I thought IYSWIM

Popcorn For some reason when people praise that Toni woman I get the hump - I'm glad that I seem to be vindicated and her book is a pile of of guff.

I agree that we should write a book, we could call it 'Trying to Push Water Uphill'. Seriously though I reckon there must be a market for a semi light hearted book aimed at women who don't get upduffed at the drop of a hat. I'd buy it!

pout - I've got the same issues with ewcm - I had loads on cd8 which is unheard for me, now on cd11 and still some but temps very low. Yes hiding under the duvet so DH won't hear the bleeps but realt want to know what's going on. Anyway, I have an awful feeling it will dry out before I actually ovulate. I am so delighted to have some as first time in 3 months as now clomid has finally left my body. Really bored of SWI - I'm sure one should enjoy themselves to get pregnant!! Also I found Toni stuff useful to know but I just was slightly annoyed I had to resort to reading books on how to make a baby because in theory it should happen and some of the stuff she said panicked me a bit. Hence the sheer neuroticism about my LP.
And actually if you think about it, we all know what we need to do an look out for when we time SWI and so no book is ever going to actually help us get pregnant. Our bodies just need to work!!

Just popping in to hand out lots of lemon drizzle cake, we only managed a third, so there is plenty to go round - the new nick is actually appropriate, as I make this cake all the time!! Waves on the way out and will reply tomorrow in more detail.

Hi all, thank you all for your bet wishes last night. DH has spoken to his friend and so is more willing to talk about it today, we've had a good chat about it and have been to tell his parents.

I'll try answer all your questions first:

Nelly She said "you can't have children", didn't even mention ICSI until I mentioned it. But when I did mention it she said that is the route we have to take. I asked if there'd ever be a chance of conceiving naturally and she said no. She was a very to the point, straight talking which DH didn't like.
I asked if there's was anyway of finding out why the count was so low and she said no, it's just one of those things we'll never know. Improving it wise, he could give up smoking or drinking but it is at such a low amount I don't think that would make a difference. We would still need ICSI. She certainly didn't give us any hope of changing it through lifestyle changes.

MrsDen I was confused about the comment of there not being any sperm left, because I also thought they were continually made. But she was definitely of the opinion that we should freeze some as there may not be any when we get to the top of the IVF waiting list
As I said above, she mentioned smoking and drinking and his job but didn't provide any hope in changing it, just that it's too low and we cant conceive naturally. She didn't mention being able to see a Urologist, just said we can't know why it's low. I'd have thought they'd want to check there wasn't something fixable like a blockage.

madness We have an appointment to go back for a follow up in two months but I think this is with the same woman not the consultant. Also, if DH does decide to go ahead with the Sperm freezing we will have to go in as soon as to organise that.

Pout With regards to the second test, she said our GP shouldn't have had DH do another test. The first was very low, 0.6 million/ml that the GP advised a second sample as soon as just to check it was correct and not a sampling/testing error. So the second was done approx 2 weeks after the first. The second came back as 0.4 million/ml and the motility was a lot worse (60% non-motile)

So, we've discussed it and we're going to write out a list of questions we still want to ask. Then i'm ringing the nurse tomorrow to ask them. If i'm not happy with her responses I think I may email the consultant.
One big question is whether this is her diagnosis or the consultants diagnosis relayed through herself.

We've also decided that we definitely want ICSI and want to try sort out private ICSI as soon as possible, whilst we wait for the NHS go.
We've also decided that we'd like to have a go at egg sharing if possible, mainly for cost reasons. But our local NHS don't offer egg sharing so I've emailed a couple of clinics that do offer it.

Are there any questions you'd want to ask if you were me?

Sorry for the long post

Well done Fatima for what seems like a very calm and organised approach to this. Your nurse sounds horrible . That sort of news should be delivered sensitively and with some kindness.

I don't want to add another worry, but I would double check that going private doesn't mean you forfeit your chance for ICSI through the NHS. I only say this because my colleague at work was told that in Scotland you get several funded attempts, but that the number you receive will be reduced for every private attempt that you do IYSWIM? Hopefully different where you are.

Hi to everyone else, must go be sociable with the family. Will write more tomorrow :)

Thanks Madness I like to get things organised

That's one thing I did check, they're happy for you to try privately while you wait so that's all good :)

Gosh fatima she really had her bedside manner down to a T, didn't she . I can't believe she was as blunt as that, with something so emotional, and frankly I think she's wrong (non medical opinion, obv). OK you have some challenges there, but mrsden is right - it does only take one sperm to meet one egg (despite my non scientific theory espoused earlier ). And if she hadn't even mentioned ICSI then she was absolutely not giving you the full picture.

To be frank, the first questions I'd want to ask would be

1. why didn't you give us other options
2. Has the consultant reviewed all your results and is this his diagnosis?
3. What are the local pct guidelines for fertility treatment

Mind you, it might not be the way to approach it, maybe you should leave the grilling to the end - but I definitely think you have been given the brush off - is this NHS?

I'm not very clued up on the medical side, but again you've already received good advice on here - esp re finding out why the count is so low. There are surely lots of things you can try - loose boxers, keeping cool, giving up the fags and booze, as well as medical investigations. It just seems ridiculous that she fobbed off your questions. God I'm very mad on your behalf.

My GP did call me back tonight. He's really nice, just has a very thorough screening process! Anyway OH has to do another SA before he can refer us, but he said he'd do that as soon as we get that sorted. OH had a mild strop about having to do it, at which point I walked away as I knew if I started on HSGs and dildo-cams and all manner of humiliating stuff I'm likely to have to go through, I might have lynched him . the good news though is I finally got an actual number for my progesterone, which was 55, which I believe is very good. He was a bit vaguer on my day 4 test but still said it was ok, just that one hormone was a bit higher but my oestrogen was ok .

So will try some more SWI tonight and keep my fingers crossed.

Oh madness you reminded me of the not-so-good news I've just learnt. In Scotland (where I am) I only get IVF if under 38. I've just turned 37, there is an 18 week recommended time for referral time, take off another 2 weeks for getting SA done, and the clock really is ticking - 32 weeks left :(

I guess I better get saving then. And oh yes if I've gone private in the meantime I can only do so twice I think.

fatima I am at the way that nurse treated you. From what you've told us she is talking rubbish. You can have children, it's just that realistically you will need ICSI. And whilst often no cause can be found for low count, there are some things that need to be ruled out. Hormonal and genetic factors. A simple blood test can look at hormone levels. The genetics one is important because there is a link between a low count and being a cystic fibrosis carrier. Of course this is not a problem and won't be passed on unless you are too. But these things should be checked out. Can you ask your GP about it? And also another cause can be a blockage which a simple ultrasound can look for.

Whilst you probably won't be able to improve his count to "normal" levels, there are lots of changes that can make a difference. Also, because the samples were taken only two weeks apart it still isn't clear whether your DH always has a low count or whether this is just a bad period, Did he have an illness 3 months before the sample?

I'm sorry for the ramble but it makes me cross that a nurse was so insensitive and also that she doesn't sound very clued up. Can you ask to speak to the consultant?

Fatima - I am flabbergasted at what this nurse said to you . Not only that I think the consultant should have delivered this information to you not a nurse. . I think it is appalling that she chose to use incredibly insensitive language and by the sounds of it fed you mis-information. We have all heard numerous stories where a couple are told they can't have children , yet they go on to conceive naturally. But icsi does aouznd the most likely route for you both but your DH still has sperm so you COUld still have a small chance of Doing naturally. So cross that this woman was so callous in her response.
Anyway I am sorry that you are in this position. I know CARE do egg sharing in case you haven't looked in to them yet. Poor you - I hope you are both bearing up.
nelly - great news about your progesterone levels - that's very good!

Morning all,

Great news Fatima that they won't penalise you for going private while you wait.

It's a bit rubbish here in Scotland, isn't it nelly? Another friend of mine was told that she would be too old for NHS IVF by the time that she had tried long enough (she only met her partner well into her 30s). They're going through the adoption process now because they felt that doing it privately was not feasible for them. I have been thinking a lot more about IVF lately, as where I live there is about a 3 year waiting list . The ideal would be to get your funded attempts first and then pay for more privately if you still need them, but that means waiting 3 more years, all the while knowing that your chances of successful IVF will be decreasing. Who would have known that this would all be so complicated???????

I think that we could all do with some lovely sunny summer weather to cheer us up - I'm sitting in the bedroom just now (formerly the loft) listening to the rain hammer down on the roof. Good for the runner beans in the garden I guess :)

Morning lovelies!

I am simply in shock about your nurse Fatima. I agree with the lovely ladies above about getting to the bottom of this things and trying to see the consultant. Moreover, I would seriously consider writing this all down and making a formal complaint - perhaps after your funded ICSI attempt(s) but it is outrageous! Or in fact, after you have had your first DC, after your private attempt :)

And those are good numbers nelly well done you. And great to eventually get hold of a useful GP!

I had to giggle a bit about your approach to SWI pout, I am afraid my DH would not be up for any action in those circumstances. Thankfully, we're passed that time of the month now (cd21 and counting). As to CM that is a reasonably reliable guide for me, as long as we don't SWI first thing (sorry TMI). This month was a bit unclear, but boob-prodding and dates have convinced me, I am definitely in the 2WWs.

And complete agree with alll your lovely ladies on collaboration to write Rolling water up a hill - you lot are better than books. Okay, best start some work, it is nearly nine!

Morning all

I'm glad it's not just me that feels a bit brushed off.

I have been emailing the ACU in Sheffield which is approx 25 miles away although not in our PCT. She can't understand why we've been given such a long wait. Also, she has said that through patient choice we can request to be referred there instead of our local hospital. Which means we would be able to be treated there both privately or on the NHS.

I'm tempted to switch hospitals, what do you think?

I'm ringing the nurse we saw with some questions, then i'm going to speak to the nice lady at Sheffield. I've got an appointment with my GP this afternoon and so I may then ask to change my referral.