20-minute neighbourhood

[WorkinMumsince4ever]

Hi mum’s!
i wanted to share something with you. Yesterday someone dropped a leaflet on my door mentioning the plans to get my council under the 20-minute neighbourhood.

This means cars (including electric) will be allowed to go outside a 20 minute perimeter, for a number of times (per Year?)

Families I know (mine included) cannot fit in that pattern, and there is no public transportation that we can rely on. Basically transportation is being capped in the name of the “climate”, however there are other ways to really push for a better climate, including stopping using plastics. Ban them. Support innovation for renewable resources, etc.

It feels a new form of control some councils pledged to follow. This will increase the amount of power they already have. I don’t believe that’s ok, no one should have that much power over people.

https://www.uk100.org/blog/2022/11/uk100s-response-net-zero-review

This is already in plans / happening in a couple of towns:

https://www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/newhams-15-minute-neighbourhood-project-supported-by-almost-20-million-funding

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-02-20/what-is-a-15-minute-city-and-why-is-the-idea-so-controversial

Is this happening in your town? Hopefully not. I don’t believe omni powers are democratic.

Don't just look on it as climate change but as our health. So many health benefits to walking and cycling and not breathing so many car fumes.

And yes it will take years. But seeing as humans will still (hopefully) be here in 100 years why not start changing town construction policy now? It's what some Scandinavian countries did. Deliberately made the decision to make towns more walking/cycling friendly.

I hear you OP
it's a dark future for those of us who enjoyed previous decades.

I am supportive of 15/20 minute towns but, and it’s a big but, you have to build them first then impose restrictions.

The problem is Councils are imposing charges (fund raising) without having the infrastructure in place first.

Surely trying to make sure everything is available within 20 minutes is a good thing? It's not banning people from traveling further away

I am supportive of 15/20 min cities, I don't use public transport and incredibly rarely use cabs or have a lift from anyone. That's partly cos of ethical/environmental reasons, partly cost, and partly because I live in an area of London with good transport links. Sometimes it feels like a sacrifice to me (eg grocery shopping, or some days out we just cant do / have to always budget more for trains to visit family, or bringing kids home from football on a Fri night - littlest's legs are knackered and I think we all look enviously at the families who pile into cars!) but mostly it suits us best and I'm lucky.

But. My bit of London has also recently done this, and the areas which are now almost traffic-free are lovely. The main roads, which many of us have to walk along, live on, or attend schools on, have become horrible. Main crossings have become dangerous due to constant crawling traffic. Buses are trapped in the traffic due to narrow main roads with no bus lanes. I am quite anti-car (exceptions for disabled people obviously; and speaking specifically in relation to this sort of London location), but I'm also really anti what the LTNs have done here, and I've been really shocked by the nastiness shown locally towards people who have been negatively affected by it: not drivers, but residents of boundary roads, bus passengers, school children. It feels like it's also caught up in gentrification here, so is even more inflammatory as a result.

All of which is to say... I've seen the tinhattery about 15 min cities being about state control, or that other conspiracy theory slogan to do with 2030. But I've also seen how polite, pragmatic criticism of this local policy has been written off as a load of petrolhead climate change denial yada yada. I think there's a tension between the urgency of climate catastrophe requiring decisive and potentially unpopular action, vs the febrile atmosphere of our current politics and therefore a need to bring people along rather than do policy to them (speaking as someone who works in government - national rather than local - this is something I think about quite often). It's really hard.

... most of that isn't directly in response to you @ClarificationNeeded btw, just that our different experiences of these interventions locally was the starting point!

@notsurewherenotsurewhy
Yes, LTN streets are fabulous but there is still the same amount of traffic.

We need to get people driving 0.5 miles to the shops and to do the school run to stop using their cars somehow. I know people like this, and it won't be easy. There's no excuse in the vast majority of London to do so.

We seem to manage fine in half time, it's like a ghost town! LTNs are good but maybe better planning and other measures to go alongside is sensible.

I have no public transport at all in my village, my nearest corner shop is eight miles away, supermarket 11 miles, doctors 15 miles, railway station 25 miles. If I walk for 30 minutes in any direction after my own street, I don’t even pass a street lamp. I’m very excited about the new facilities that will be built for me under these proposals.

Can you link to the page on that website that takes about this restriction you have mentioned?

I’m getting David Icke vibes.

Why don't you post a photo of the leaflet. Then we'll know if you're just scaremongering or not.

Sorry - but I wasn't agreeing with you because I work for one of those councils you are slamming, and live in a second one, and what you are claiming is absolutely not what we are aiming for. Nobody (that I know of) is advocating preventing people from lawfully travelling by any means or imprisoning them in a neighbourhood. I'll be happy for you to provide evidence that I am wrong about this though....

I am in favour of the 20 minute neighbourhood, and it will improve overall quality of life for the majority of people. But it will never happen because there will be no investment to make it happen. What I am not in favour of is people thinking that all drivers are selfish, or that jogging around the neighbourhood is suitable for everyone.

I don't suppose you want me to tell you that we can already track cars, and don't need any upgrades? Or that facial recognition is not yet good enough to identify people without masks, never mind ones wearing them.

What I objected to was the patronising tone of one poster who implied that people who depend on cars are basically lazy or stupid.

Completely agree. We should all be up in arms that planners, policies etc have been allowed to build in such a car-dependent way for so long. Not be angry now that a wrong may finally be righted.

For climate and health reasons the 20 min city needs to become the norm and the expectation as soon as possible. The number of (healthy, mobile) people I’ve met who consider 20 mins a long walk is so depressing. And don’t get me started on those driving half a mile to school…

This example from New Zealand
sigh

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/132285034/kiwi-property-turns-sylvia-park-into-20-minute-city

I think people need to be cautious about extolling the virtues of how "their parents and grandparents lived when they were growing up". I am 66 years old - I'm one of those grandparents. And honestly, 90% of MN posters will be manning the barricades if they had to live like that!. Oh it sounds lovely and glorious...

We'll do away with the the shopping malls / centres, and actually we should probably also do away with online shopping (all those transport costs etc), and we'll all nip to the local butchers, deli, greengrocers etc. Of course, they'll be so small, so there will be limited stock and prices will rise because, like it or not, there are efficiencies to be made in mass selling both in terms of range and volume. Hmm, and of course where people are poor, there will be little point in opening a shop because they won't buy enough to make it worth your while opening.

Hmm - all that inconvenient school choice stuff over and done with. You will send your kids to the local school and that will be the end of it. If you are unlucky enough to have a failing school then tough, suck it up.

I grew up in a 20 minute neighbourhood. Well actually it was a 30 minute neighbourhood because that's how long it took to walk to school. Believe me, nobody wants to grow up in that poverty and deprivation. Yeah, school, corner shops, doctor, dentist were all within walking distance, but we had nothing like the degree of choice that people now have, and you lived with what you had for better or worse.

Until we tackle ingrained deprivation and social injustice, then the 20 minute neighbourhood, if it ever happened, would simply reinforce and worsen existing deprivation and only benefit the nice middle class neighbourhoods - although in many cases some of those are perilously close to "sink schools". Our local worst performing school is next to some fabulous middle class areas where all the parents fight tooth and nail to get their kids somewhere else, and pupils are shipped from the other side of the city (nearly an hour by bus) to fill the places. There would be rioting on the streets if those nice people were expected to send their children to the local school.

A 20 minute neighbourhood might contain what you need for life but it can also be very limiting - 95% of the kids where I grew up never left there. That wasn't because it was so great, it was because they never had any other options. And their children and grandchildren are also still largely trapped in the same life they had, just with a modern twist.

If we want to make this work, the past is not the model that we want to use....

Oh ffs

this is actually from the website the op linked to 🙈

That is true. Cambridge City is a case in point - the council wants to introduce a congestion charge, but it would penalise anyone who doesn't live in Cambridge or one of the well-connected commuter towns. A frequent and affordable public transport system should always be to first step.

Did you join Mumsnet just to spread this conspiracy theory @WorkinMumsince4ever ?

wobytide
It's amazing how many people are losing their shit over a concept that is pretty much how their parents and grandparents lived when they were growing up.

It's hardly revolutionary having your basic needs close to hand. The fact that we don't have them close to hand anymore is the bigger issue

Totally agree. It's local council planning - that has been allowed without objection - that has got us to here.

No it is not a dictatorship telling you where to shop etc. Its improving local amenities so you DON'T have to drive to go to the shops/Dr/coffee shop etc

But for the most part they are not doing that, and also it removes a lot of personal choice.

I like being able to freely drive to a cheap supermarket, and an expensive gym. I think it is a reasonable to expect the freedom to do this without being told that I if I exceed a set number of journeys I have to pay.

If all the facilities existed in my locality I would have no issue this. I cycle wherever I can but other life commitments mean that I need to use my car.

Until we tackle ingrained deprivation and social injustice, then the 20 minute neighbourhood, if it ever happened, would simply reinforce and worsen existing deprivation and only benefit the nice middle class neighbourhoods

Well said!

It's amazing how many people are losing their shit over a concept that is pretty much how their parents and grandparents lived when they were growing up

So your argument it that this is fine because it takes us back to a lifestyle that people had in the mid 20th century? Call me a fruit loop but I prefer the life that I have now. Freedom of choice and not being financially penalised for using that choice.

We started watching a program about Glasgow and the ice cream van wars and there were stuff in about new estates with no infrastructure. Pretty crazy.

OP you can’t really believe this can you?

I hate the idea, I don't want it all on my doorstep. I am, however, very supportive of the development of a public transport system that actually works for those living outside of London or other major cities.

Yes, I’d also like to have a link to a page on that website with details of the plans to restrict the number of times you can use your car. That would be super helpful in showing that this isn’t just some conspiracy theory 🙄