Plumber said NO to new heat pump. Do I really need a new gas boiler?

[Handy123]

Our gas boiler needs replacing as it's knackered. Plumber came round and said a new air source heat pump system would not work. We have the budget for it (yes I know it's very expensive) and want to stop burning fossil fuels and protect the environment.

It's a small 2 bed terrace, very old. It's built of stone so I can insulate the roof space easily, but the walls less so. Does not currently have underfloor heating and has small radiators. It has a garden to put the heat pump in, but he has said it would be noisy and would pump out cold air so it would make the garden unusable.

I really like our plumber as he's usually brilliant. Straight-talking, fair and honest. Should I accept his advice on this one or keep trying? It just seems wrong to put a new gas boiler in right now.

Presumably as a plumber he’s invested in you installing a gas boiler? Why not get a company that specialises in renewables to come and quote/ assess the suitability of your house?

What did he suggest would be a feasible long term option instead? Given the phase out of gas boilers?

@Flockameanie thank you- yes I think I'll try this.

@Hungry675tf He didn't suggest an alternative to gas. I think they just keep selling new boilers until they legally can't.

He doesn’t know how to install a heat pump.

Gas boilers will not be phased out in existing houses until the mid 2030s. Its only new build properties that will be banned from having gas boilers from 2025. In the meantime OP will need an affordable heating system installed.

Unless you want to replace all your radiators and put in underfloor heating too you probably can’t put a heat pump in sensibly! Plus you need a hot water tank - do you have one?

I'd go with a gas boiler. The heat pump systems look awful at the moment. I would wait until they are a bit more refined for UK houses which I'm sure will come in the next 10 years.

Heat pumps are not suited to old, poorly insulated houses. They work best in modern, well insulated houses where indirect sources of heating, such as UFH can be used. He’s probably saving you an expensive mistake, unless you’re prepared to totally gut your house, put in a new subfloor which is sufficiently insulated for UFH and piping and radiators that will work with the lesser quality of heat generated by an air source heat pump.

Heat pumps are more expensive to run than mains gas, and will cost you a fortune if your house is poorly insulated - it’s basically electric heating.

www.boilerguide.co.uk/air-source/is-my-house-suitable-for-a-heat-pump. Not sure your house sounds suitable tbh

Based on current design etc very few houses at the moment are equipped for a heat pump, not least because of the amount of space they need.

And I can’t help thinking that all these heat pumps will be installed and then they will suddenly wonder where all the electricity is going to come from. New nuclear power plants perhaps?

Heat pumps are a knee-jerk reaction, as boilers in existing houses won’t be phased out for some time I certainly wouldn’t jump to install the first thing which comes along which has been poorly thought through.

I think he’s probably correct. You really don’t want to be digging your floors unless you really have to.
Can you add secondary glazing, more loft insulation, solar panels (either water heating or photo voltaic), more energy efficient bulbs basically as many other energy saving features as you can and go with the most efficient gas boiler you can get?

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Heat pumps are not suited to old, poorly insulated houses. They work best in modern, well insulated houses where indirect sources of heating, such as UFH can be used. He’s probably saving you an expensive mistake, unless you’re prepared to totally gut your house, put in a new subfloor which is sufficiently insulated for UFH and piping and radiators that will work with the lesser quality of heat generated by an air source heat pump.

Heat pumps are more expensive to run than mains gas, and will cost you a fortune if your house is poorly insulated - it’s basically electric heating.

This.

But if you’re still really keen you need to get some different people in to give you quotes. It’s obvious he doesn’t want to do the work or doesn’t know how to do it.

get another plumber in who knows about heat pumps.
if you are lucky and your radiators and pipes are up to it it might be an easy(ish) job.
takes some time to adjust to a different way of heating.

I really like our plumber as he's usually brilliant. Straight-talking, fair and honest. Should I accept his advice on this one or keep trying? It just seems wrong to put a new gas boiler in right now

If he has always been reliable and honest ask him to size up the costs anyway (assuming he does heat pump installations) as well as one of the more efficient gas boiler systems. Or is he saying that even if you install underfloor heating and bigger radiators the pump would struggle due to stone walls/other issues?

Might be worth asking about a hybrid model but in a small place that could be worst of both worlds rather than best - that is worth discussing with the plumber. You could also get a second opinion but it can be tricky to find reliable heat pump installers for one quote let alone two in my experience.

You might be able to reduce carbon footprint better by spending the money on solar panels if you don't already have them and revisit heat pumps in a few years when the technology might have moved on.

We just had our gas combi serviced and the engineer also said not to spend money just yet on heat pumps.

if you are lucky and your radiators and pipes are up to it it might be an easy(ish) job.

Frankly, I’m not prepared to start spending money on it until the above sentence doesn’t contain the words ‘lucky’, ‘might’ and ‘ish’.

I also simply do not believe that everyone will be forced to remove gas boilers in the time frame the government likes to think it will happen.

I suspect there will be a rush on boiler installations in early 2030s because if you choose well you could get 20 years out of a good boiler.

You DON'T need underfloor heating with a heat pump! I don't know why loads of people on here keep saying that you do.
We discussed replacing our oil boiler with a couple of plumbers who fit oil boilers. Much sucking of teeth, shaking of head. When pressed they admitted that they hadn't done any training or knew much about them.
We looked for companies who advertised that they fitted pumps. I found 2-3 reasonably local to us,listed on Which Trusted Traders, and asked them for quotes and had one installed last year. We didn't have to replace radiators but did replace several where the rooms didn't get particularly warm. Our installation wasn't easy as we have microbore pipes.
Get an expert in!
Yes, you need decent insulation in the loft but its worth it anyway. The comments about the garden becoming unusable are untrue. We have an area in front of our pump where we tread carefully when it is freezing, but our paths are all slippery when wet. Pumps aren't massive, ours is about the same size as the oil boiler. Its a lot quieter too, I can stand next to my fan in use, and hear my neighbours's oil boilers fire up above it.

You may qualify for a free boiler, not everyone qualifies but worth a look! Have a look at Affordable Warmth Obligation helps to pay for repairs too.

www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/buying-a-new-boiler/boiler-grants-can-i-get-a-free-boiler-a1OOC7R27kYS - Which?

@RainingYetAgain are you able to share any details? Model of pump and anything else relevant?

We are going with an air source heat pump with a new build passivehaus (A rated), but have been told that the pump will be noisy, will make a large part of the garden unusable, and won’t heat the house to more that 16-17 degrees.

[quote iwishiwasafish]@RainingYetAgain are you able to share any details? Model of pump and anything else relevant?

We are going with an air source heat pump with a new build passivehaus (A rated), but have been told that the pump will be noisy, will make a large part of the garden unusable, and won’t heat the house to more that 16-17 degrees.[/quote]
Who told you that @iwishiwasafish? I mean, I don’t know the details of your house and perhaps it’s huge or something with unsuitable radiators, but we live in a newish conversion (original bungalow heavily converted and extended), decently insulated but certainly not passive, and our house heats up to low 20’s quite easily. The heat pump (which is a cheap model installed by the previous owners- about the bottom of the range) certainly doesn’t make a large part of the garden unusable. I mean, you wouldn’t want to put your patio seating right next to it, but ours is down the side of the house and you can’t really hear it until you’re standing right next to it- and we’re rural without too much background noise.

You’d need to insulate your walls either internally or externally and even then you could spend a hell of a lot of money to find you can’t get your house warm enough.

You DON'T need underfloor heating with a heat pump! I don't know why loads of people on here keep saying that you do

It depends on the build of the house. The quotes we had said we would need underfloor heating (whilst also saying it would be difficult to install in our house) as well as bigger radiators (ours are already double throughout) and add wall insulation to the outside of our solid brick house and substantially increase the size of our water cylinder (which would not hold water as hot as the current cylinder for baths etc).

These were quotes from heat pump installation companies - their comments were near identical to those form our regular plumber who recommended we also get quotes from at one heat pump specialist.

Some houses simply do not lend themselves to the current state of the technology.

We had our 1920’s semi assessed for a heat pump last year and the answer was no. We did need to update our central system. We now have A boilier and A double vented cylinder that will be compatable with solar heating or a heat pump in the future, pipes of the correct diameter and radiators overpowered for each room ( suitable for more ambient temps) and underfloor heating in the new extension. We asked our plumber / heating engineer how to future proof and we got great advise. He said that he is asked that a lot at the moment.

We are also insulating as much as possible as we refurb. The cost of insulation has skyrocketed though.

Second the suggestion to get a quote from someone who specialises in heat pumps.

You probably can have one. They aren't very noisy, more like a low hum for most. And they won't make your garden 'unusable'

If you don't have much insulation a heat pump will be more expensive to run as of course your gas heating is, compared to a better insulated house)

If you really can't insulate the walls (have you looked at woodfibre internal insulation, by the way?), recommend loft as you say, also consider draughtproofing and installing /upgrading good ventilation to match. That way you get the air you need but not the air you don't when it's cold and windy. Can save a fair bit of energy, depending how draughty your house is to begin with.

The other thing you would probably need to do is invest in some larger radiators eg double or triple panel ones with fins. This might add an extra few 100 to the cost but means the heat pump can keep you properly warm and will be more efficient , so you would get the outlay back in bill savings over time.

Definitely don't give up yet!