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The Rapture?

60 replies

HootyMcBoobys · 22/08/2025 11:17

Hello fellow Christian mumsnetters.

Have any of you noticed the mass of videos on social media claiming that the Rapture is about to happen in September?
What do you think about this, and do you believe in the Rapture in general? Would you welcome it now, or be afraid, especially if you knew that friends or family have not found God and would be left behind?

Obviously there have been many times this has been predicted in the past, and those have all been wrong, but I can't recall there ever being so many testimonies about this before. Apparently there have been many weird things going on astronomically, earthquakes, etc etc.

Do you think we are living in the end times?

I don't claim to be a Bible expert but some say that Rapture is not even in the Bible and was invented by man.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 11:42

@GentleSheepYes, I am but not a fundamentalist

GentleSheep · 27/08/2025 12:35

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 11:42

@GentleSheepYes, I am but not a fundamentalist

Why is talking about the Rapture and Tribulation a fundamentalist thing? It's just Scripture. Opinions vary on the timing of the Rapture and whether there will be an actual 7 year Tribulation or as some churches believe, we are in the Tribulation now.

As a Dispensationalist I hold to literal-grammatical-historical interpretation of Scriptures.

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 13:03

OK, thanks for the clarification. I’m not a Dispensationalist either!

VincitVeritasI · 27/08/2025 18:35

Substitute 'fundamentalist' with 'true Christian' @GentleSheep. Avoiding meat on a Sunday does not a vegetarian make!

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 18:47

@VincitVeritasI I'm not a vegetarian either! I told you I was enjoying this thread Smile
Looking forward to further judgements from ‘True Christians’ Halo

VincitVeritasI · 27/08/2025 19:08

That's rather disingenuous @Mydoglovescheese.

If I remember rightly you believe the Bible to be irrelevant these days.

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 27/08/2025 19:24

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 18:47

@VincitVeritasI I'm not a vegetarian either! I told you I was enjoying this thread Smile
Looking forward to further judgements from ‘True Christians’ Halo

Well @Mydoglovescheese you did enter this thread in rather rude way. Being as you say you are a Christian maybe you can share your thoughts on Revelation rather than appearing to mock those who want the discussion?

VincitVeritasI · 27/08/2025 20:45

@Mydoglovescheese Please read this in the spirit it's intended. This isn't about one-upmanship, I'm genuinely concerned for you, reading back some of your past posts. This one stood out:

I know a great deal about Jesus and believe that he was probably a genuine, charismatic Jewish rabbi.

All Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God - fully human and yet fully divine, not merely a good man.

Why? Here are some examples from Scripture:

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

"I and the Father are one.”

“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

  • *“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

  • *“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;* *rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father"?
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.* *In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” * Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” *Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. * *He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 23:09

@Thegreatestoftheseislovethese are my thoughts:

Matthew 24:36 says that no man knows the day or hour, not even the Son or the angels, only the Father.

I don’t think that we are meant to know when the rapture will happen or to speculate about the specific details of events and the timeline leading up to it. If the Son is not to know, do you think we should be privy to that information, isn’t that rather presumptuous?

Over the centuries there have been many predictions causing alarm and distress which obviously proved to be false. In my opinion speculation is akin to ‘going down a rabbit hole’ and a waste of valuable time and resources.

You may well disagree and that is absolutely your prerogative, but I am also entitled to my opinion which I have backed up with Scripture. Unfortunately many frequent posters on this forum seem unwilling to accept that others may have different opinions to themselves which may be equally valid.

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 23:36

@VincitVeritasI My comments were not that the Bible is irrelevant, but that cultural context must be taken into account.

As an example, the book of Leviticus lists a huge range of commands and punishments that would have been strictly adhered to at the time. I sincerely hope that Christians don’t condone or recommend them, particularly the death penalties, as part of the Christian faith and practice in today’s culture.

I think my previous comments you referred to were about divorce and remarriage which in Jesus’ day was completely different. A man could divorce his wife and marry another wife, leaving his first wife destitute, just by saying ‘ I divorce you ‘ As always Jesus was rooting for the oppressed and underdogs.

I believe that if Jesus were talking today he would be saddened by the high levels of divorce, but I don’t think he would condemn a woman to a life of solitude because her marriage failed. He would address the issues in our society within the cultural context of today.

Anyway, this is rather off thread, but as you commented I responded.

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 02:53

As an example, the book of Leviticus lists a huge range of commands and punishments that would have been strictly adhered to at the time. I sincerely hope that Christians don’t condone or recommend them, particularly the death penalties, as part of the Christian faith and practice in today’s culture.

Those laws have been superceded by the New Covenant, though. We are no longer constrained to follow hundreds of rules, for example in the New Testament it's explained that we don't need to follow the dietary laws. Jesus said all foods are clean (Mark 7:19). If any Christian insists we should still follow those Levitical Laws then they don't have a proper understanding of the Bible.

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 06:08

Hi everyone, obviously there is some symbolism in the Book of Revelations and here are some-Eating the Book. I talked about this with my dad who is seasoned at 81 and full of wisdom and knowledge deepened and he said that this is symbolic of prophecy and prophecy being done. I am autistic as well and a believer and read it at first and didn't question it and thought someone gobbled up their book. They didn't and when I thought and reflected on it with my spirit got it means prophecy has been done to.

Another one Jezebel isn't a single woman. It may appear it at first. She is though symbolic of the immorality of others in Revelations of how they undermine and cause immorality to men and women servants of God members of Christ.

There are others. I still think it would be helpful as many people are here to point out what is literal and symbolic in Revelations-like the woman sent out who was pregnant-symbolic or literal to you. You know the New Testament the Lord clearly points out what is a parable symbolic and literal easily and it is not so easy to tell in Revelations-may be that is why some Christians struggle with it. Some think it is important when she is sent away for X days to use as a gauge to the Lord's return to.

The daughter of blasphemy literal or symbolic your take.

Also-God praised for his judgements-it makes it seem like some mini case which is never necessary to me.. To you is our God to be judged by his elders-Symbolic or literal event to you.

Two witnesses to you-symbolic or literal as I have been looking forward to it

Why to you was there not a Holy person enough to open the Book of Seals in Heaven or Earth. It upset me to read this one-obviously Christ is the only Perfect one. Interesting to hear your thoughts.

Interesting and passionate thoughts in this thread. Happy to see new faces and hope some of you will be up there in the clouds when the time comes if it is your era.

Do you think as Matthew says it will be difficult to have prayers answered towards the end as they say woe to pregnant women at this time and when it is in winter it will be difficult to live..

Moving on of course noone knows the time, we look for signs etc-
One government UN to any of you?
Many antichrist are out there already
Seems we may have hit some key stages and to me it has some unusual affliction noted for some.

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 07:48

I have some discussion about the nature and personality of the Lord.

Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine he came to us in a mortal body. However, many know this but additionally he has attributes like being meek and low in spirit, holy but down to earth at some times keen to interact with many such as prostitutes' and not belittle them and he appears a bit of a people of all trades-can reach out to anyone who wants to meet him with sincerity. He has meet gangster's etc. So perhaps the poster who said Jesus was charismatic felt he was these additionally as being the Son of God and King of the Jews as well.

I have seen on another people get scolded for Jesus was a good guy down to earth and me knowing and reading probably they thought he was the Son of God as well....perhaps its like that. Lets relax a bit, peace.

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 09:00

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 06:08

Hi everyone, obviously there is some symbolism in the Book of Revelations and here are some-Eating the Book. I talked about this with my dad who is seasoned at 81 and full of wisdom and knowledge deepened and he said that this is symbolic of prophecy and prophecy being done. I am autistic as well and a believer and read it at first and didn't question it and thought someone gobbled up their book. They didn't and when I thought and reflected on it with my spirit got it means prophecy has been done to.

Another one Jezebel isn't a single woman. It may appear it at first. She is though symbolic of the immorality of others in Revelations of how they undermine and cause immorality to men and women servants of God members of Christ.

There are others. I still think it would be helpful as many people are here to point out what is literal and symbolic in Revelations-like the woman sent out who was pregnant-symbolic or literal to you. You know the New Testament the Lord clearly points out what is a parable symbolic and literal easily and it is not so easy to tell in Revelations-may be that is why some Christians struggle with it. Some think it is important when she is sent away for X days to use as a gauge to the Lord's return to.

The daughter of blasphemy literal or symbolic your take.

Also-God praised for his judgements-it makes it seem like some mini case which is never necessary to me.. To you is our God to be judged by his elders-Symbolic or literal event to you.

Two witnesses to you-symbolic or literal as I have been looking forward to it

Why to you was there not a Holy person enough to open the Book of Seals in Heaven or Earth. It upset me to read this one-obviously Christ is the only Perfect one. Interesting to hear your thoughts.

Interesting and passionate thoughts in this thread. Happy to see new faces and hope some of you will be up there in the clouds when the time comes if it is your era.

Do you think as Matthew says it will be difficult to have prayers answered towards the end as they say woe to pregnant women at this time and when it is in winter it will be difficult to live..

Moving on of course noone knows the time, we look for signs etc-
One government UN to any of you?
Many antichrist are out there already
Seems we may have hit some key stages and to me it has some unusual affliction noted for some.

Edited

Some really great thoughts there! Obviously Revelation has a lot in it so going through the entire thing here is too much but I can point out a few things. You can think of Revelation as being a book entirely written in code, and the code is explained somewhere else in the Bible - e.g. the 2-edged sword in the mouth of Jesus is explained in Hebrews 4:12 and Ephesians 6:17 as the word of God.

There are several main views of Revelation held by Christians:

Preterist - Revelation is only applicable to the 1st Century.
Historical - Revelation recaps history.
Idealiist - Revelation if allegorical (Augustine onwards) - this is what most denominations today believe.
Futurist - Revelation is prophetic (what I believe).

Re your mention of Jezebel: Rev. 2:18-29 is the letter of Jesus to the church in Thyatira and this is where 'Jezebel' is mentioned. Thyatira was an important centre for trade and had powerful trade guilds, each being under the patronage of a pagan diety. The letter commends the church generally for their faith, service and endurance, but condemns their tolerance of 'Jezebel'. Now in the OT Jezebel was a Baal worshipper and sought to kill God's prophets. She enticed her husband King Ahab to idolatry mixed with worship of Yahweh. So Jezebel generally represents idolatry, sexual immorality and unrepentence. I believe she isn't an actual person here but a representation of evil. 'Her children' would be those who indulge in idolatry and sexual immorality. Just as Jezebel in the OT was unwilling to repent, so these latter will also not repent and as such God will judge them harshly. This letter serves as a warning to all the churches not to tolerate these practices.

Moving on: The pregnant woman and the Dragon (Rev 12) - the woman represents Israel (relating to the OT concept of Israel as the wife of Yahweh), the Dragon is Satan. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. This is first seen in Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11 where the Sun represents Jacob, later re-named by God as Israel. The vision of the woman about to give birth is the nation of Israel just prior to the birth of the Messiah. The 7 heads and 10 horns of the dragon represent the final form of the fourth Gentile world empire under Satan's authority. The 7 diadems point to a concept of conquest. The dragon's tail sweeping down one third of the stars refers to one third of Heaven's angels falling with Satan. Satan tried to prevent the Messiah from surviving and fulfilling his destiny but as we know that failed and the child (Jesus) went on to fulfil that destiny and ascend to Heaven. The woman fleeing to the wilderness (Rev 12:6) represents the flight of the remnant of Israel into the wilderness mid-Trib where God will protect them for 3.5 years. Up to that time Satan persecutes Israel (which we can see today and over the history of the world). Verse 15 refers to a 'flood' which usually symbolises military invasion. This is yet to come.

Two witnesses will be real people. Who they are exactly is open to speculation, some think Elijah, Moses or Enoch. Others think maybe people born at that time with a special annointing. Don't know! :) Their purpose is to witness to the Jewish people in Israel (mainly Jerusalem) and they will possess miraculous powers so they can't be killed or stopped till the appointed time (mid-Trib) when they will be killed. After 3 days they will be resurrected and ascend to Heaven, everyone will see it (how does everyone see it? Think power of the Internet and webcams! That's my take on that detail).

Opening the scrolls - only Jesus was holy enough to do so because he is the only one without sin. None of us are, so no human could ever open the scrolls, only the Lamb can.

To you is our God to be judged by his elders - I don't understand this comment, God does not have any elders, our God is unique and is all powerful. There are no other beings who could judge Him.

The section in Matthew you are refering to (Matt 24:15-21) refers to the time immediately following the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple (mid-Trib). The references to winter are connected to the climate of Israel. In winter the rainy season makes flash floods very likely and so escaping from Jerusalem will be much harder. Also being pregnant or with a baby would similarly be more difficult. Sabbath would also be harder as transport in Israel stops over Sabbath. I see Matthew's exhortation to pray as something that believers should do in those times to hopefully avoid winter and the Sabbath.

One world government (Daniel 7:23-24, Ezekiel 38:1- 39:16) - "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and break it in pieces'. Sounds fun! Currently we have an east-west axis of power but one day the eastern power will collapse with the fall of Russian forces and the destruction of Russia. This will open the way for a one world government. It could be connected to the UN, or maybe not, but it will take over the entire world.

Yes many antichrists are already present but THE Antichrist has yet to be seen - he may be alive already, we don't know.

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 10:38

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 09:00

Some really great thoughts there! Obviously Revelation has a lot in it so going through the entire thing here is too much but I can point out a few things. You can think of Revelation as being a book entirely written in code, and the code is explained somewhere else in the Bible - e.g. the 2-edged sword in the mouth of Jesus is explained in Hebrews 4:12 and Ephesians 6:17 as the word of God.

There are several main views of Revelation held by Christians:

Preterist - Revelation is only applicable to the 1st Century.
Historical - Revelation recaps history.
Idealiist - Revelation if allegorical (Augustine onwards) - this is what most denominations today believe.
Futurist - Revelation is prophetic (what I believe).

Re your mention of Jezebel: Rev. 2:18-29 is the letter of Jesus to the church in Thyatira and this is where 'Jezebel' is mentioned. Thyatira was an important centre for trade and had powerful trade guilds, each being under the patronage of a pagan diety. The letter commends the church generally for their faith, service and endurance, but condemns their tolerance of 'Jezebel'. Now in the OT Jezebel was a Baal worshipper and sought to kill God's prophets. She enticed her husband King Ahab to idolatry mixed with worship of Yahweh. So Jezebel generally represents idolatry, sexual immorality and unrepentence. I believe she isn't an actual person here but a representation of evil. 'Her children' would be those who indulge in idolatry and sexual immorality. Just as Jezebel in the OT was unwilling to repent, so these latter will also not repent and as such God will judge them harshly. This letter serves as a warning to all the churches not to tolerate these practices.

Moving on: The pregnant woman and the Dragon (Rev 12) - the woman represents Israel (relating to the OT concept of Israel as the wife of Yahweh), the Dragon is Satan. The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. This is first seen in Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11 where the Sun represents Jacob, later re-named by God as Israel. The vision of the woman about to give birth is the nation of Israel just prior to the birth of the Messiah. The 7 heads and 10 horns of the dragon represent the final form of the fourth Gentile world empire under Satan's authority. The 7 diadems point to a concept of conquest. The dragon's tail sweeping down one third of the stars refers to one third of Heaven's angels falling with Satan. Satan tried to prevent the Messiah from surviving and fulfilling his destiny but as we know that failed and the child (Jesus) went on to fulfil that destiny and ascend to Heaven. The woman fleeing to the wilderness (Rev 12:6) represents the flight of the remnant of Israel into the wilderness mid-Trib where God will protect them for 3.5 years. Up to that time Satan persecutes Israel (which we can see today and over the history of the world). Verse 15 refers to a 'flood' which usually symbolises military invasion. This is yet to come.

Two witnesses will be real people. Who they are exactly is open to speculation, some think Elijah, Moses or Enoch. Others think maybe people born at that time with a special annointing. Don't know! :) Their purpose is to witness to the Jewish people in Israel (mainly Jerusalem) and they will possess miraculous powers so they can't be killed or stopped till the appointed time (mid-Trib) when they will be killed. After 3 days they will be resurrected and ascend to Heaven, everyone will see it (how does everyone see it? Think power of the Internet and webcams! That's my take on that detail).

Opening the scrolls - only Jesus was holy enough to do so because he is the only one without sin. None of us are, so no human could ever open the scrolls, only the Lamb can.

To you is our God to be judged by his elders - I don't understand this comment, God does not have any elders, our God is unique and is all powerful. There are no other beings who could judge Him.

The section in Matthew you are refering to (Matt 24:15-21) refers to the time immediately following the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple (mid-Trib). The references to winter are connected to the climate of Israel. In winter the rainy season makes flash floods very likely and so escaping from Jerusalem will be much harder. Also being pregnant or with a baby would similarly be more difficult. Sabbath would also be harder as transport in Israel stops over Sabbath. I see Matthew's exhortation to pray as something that believers should do in those times to hopefully avoid winter and the Sabbath.

One world government (Daniel 7:23-24, Ezekiel 38:1- 39:16) - "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and break it in pieces'. Sounds fun! Currently we have an east-west axis of power but one day the eastern power will collapse with the fall of Russian forces and the destruction of Russia. This will open the way for a one world government. It could be connected to the UN, or maybe not, but it will take over the entire world.

Yes many antichrists are already present but THE Antichrist has yet to be seen - he may be alive already, we don't know.

GentleSheep, thank you so much and that explains a lot. The God is praised for his judgements appears in my Bible like that and I think God has a council to around him. I think he likes to take others opinions on board to. I have been in hospital and they have ward rounds and call on all the staff to weigh in before big decisions are made. I don't think its needed and neither do I want to see God treated like this, but happy to hear anyone thoughts if it literal or symbolic/allegorical. If it was to be the case I can see why he might like that as there are whisperers out there and God doesn't them doing it. It is wrong, but judging by when when many Israelites didn't get to the Promised land for whispering about Moses and Aaron who he directed..they spoke out God cut them off.

I have attached how it appears in my Bible KJV. I am of the prophetic symbolic/literal allegorical view myself I think of all of those you listed.

The Rapture?
The Rapture?
GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 11:07

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 10:38

GentleSheep, thank you so much and that explains a lot. The God is praised for his judgements appears in my Bible like that and I think God has a council to around him. I think he likes to take others opinions on board to. I have been in hospital and they have ward rounds and call on all the staff to weigh in before big decisions are made. I don't think its needed and neither do I want to see God treated like this, but happy to hear anyone thoughts if it literal or symbolic/allegorical. If it was to be the case I can see why he might like that as there are whisperers out there and God doesn't them doing it. It is wrong, but judging by when when many Israelites didn't get to the Promised land for whispering about Moses and Aaron who he directed..they spoke out God cut them off.

I have attached how it appears in my Bible KJV. I am of the prophetic symbolic/literal allegorical view myself I think of all of those you listed.

Edited

Do you mean where it talks about the multitude praising God? That is the Church, the angels and saints in Heaven all shouting and praising God together (as Satan has been defeated by this point).

I am not keen on the idea of a Divine council unless it's very carefully defined as it can lead into Open Theism, so I'm not inclined to speculate.

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 11:28

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 11:07

Do you mean where it talks about the multitude praising God? That is the Church, the angels and saints in Heaven all shouting and praising God together (as Satan has been defeated by this point).

I am not keen on the idea of a Divine council unless it's very carefully defined as it can lead into Open Theism, so I'm not inclined to speculate.

Thank you GentleSheep that is what I am referring to, it is very good to read your thoughts. Who do you think these people are the elders..."And the four and twenty elders....fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
That is from KJV.

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 12:38

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 11:28

Thank you GentleSheep that is what I am referring to, it is very good to read your thoughts. Who do you think these people are the elders..."And the four and twenty elders....fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
That is from KJV.

Edited

Well my pastor's thoughts on this (and of course others may differ) is that they are 24 leaders representing the Church. The only other mention of 24 elders in relation to priests occurs in 1 Chronicles 24, where the priests are divided into 24 groups, and each selected one representative to stand before God. The Church, being a kingdom of priests, embodies this same idea. This would mean they're not angels but humans.

These elders are wearing stephanos crowns (victory crowns), which indicates a reward, given by God. So at this point in the narrative there's only one group of people that have received a stephanos crown, and that is the Church in its entirety. Since angels don't receive a reward this does rule them out as elders.

All are wearing white robes which indicates salvation. Angels have no need of salvation so again that would rule out angels being these elders. From the crown rewards it's most likely the Church who is represented here, not Israel, although Jews can still be part of the Church as believers.

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 14:30

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 12:38

Well my pastor's thoughts on this (and of course others may differ) is that they are 24 leaders representing the Church. The only other mention of 24 elders in relation to priests occurs in 1 Chronicles 24, where the priests are divided into 24 groups, and each selected one representative to stand before God. The Church, being a kingdom of priests, embodies this same idea. This would mean they're not angels but humans.

These elders are wearing stephanos crowns (victory crowns), which indicates a reward, given by God. So at this point in the narrative there's only one group of people that have received a stephanos crown, and that is the Church in its entirety. Since angels don't receive a reward this does rule them out as elders.

All are wearing white robes which indicates salvation. Angels have no need of salvation so again that would rule out angels being these elders. From the crown rewards it's most likely the Church who is represented here, not Israel, although Jews can still be part of the Church as believers.

Thank you for that GentleSheep, you have been very helpful. When the verse said God sending Jezebel into whoredom (KJV) led to the final united praise..it sounded to me like there may have been thought going on somewhere. I had read as well that God would be praised for his judgements unlike Trump as well who wasn't by his elect. It did stand out and seemed staged but not necessary.
The church I attend we do not do Bible study but it is a great church. I attend an Anglican church now today as a non demontional. I am not part of any demon...but have taken vows etc. I am a follower of Christ and all of his teaching are very clear to me. The Revelations though most people have learn that post school if they did RE and went to a religious school like me. We never did this chapter. I am happy with what I know and understand now and confirmed by others to. Sometimes I do text my rector to check with her and my dad.

GentleSheep · 28/08/2025 15:48

Justmerach · 28/08/2025 14:30

Thank you for that GentleSheep, you have been very helpful. When the verse said God sending Jezebel into whoredom (KJV) led to the final united praise..it sounded to me like there may have been thought going on somewhere. I had read as well that God would be praised for his judgements unlike Trump as well who wasn't by his elect. It did stand out and seemed staged but not necessary.
The church I attend we do not do Bible study but it is a great church. I attend an Anglican church now today as a non demontional. I am not part of any demon...but have taken vows etc. I am a follower of Christ and all of his teaching are very clear to me. The Revelations though most people have learn that post school if they did RE and went to a religious school like me. We never did this chapter. I am happy with what I know and understand now and confirmed by others to. Sometimes I do text my rector to check with her and my dad.

It's not an easy book to study for sure. I only began studying it during the past year. Before that I was none the wiser as my then church (CoE) didn't bother with it. Such a shame! Happy to help!

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 28/08/2025 17:56

Mydoglovescheese · 27/08/2025 23:09

@Thegreatestoftheseislovethese are my thoughts:

Matthew 24:36 says that no man knows the day or hour, not even the Son or the angels, only the Father.

I don’t think that we are meant to know when the rapture will happen or to speculate about the specific details of events and the timeline leading up to it. If the Son is not to know, do you think we should be privy to that information, isn’t that rather presumptuous?

Over the centuries there have been many predictions causing alarm and distress which obviously proved to be false. In my opinion speculation is akin to ‘going down a rabbit hole’ and a waste of valuable time and resources.

You may well disagree and that is absolutely your prerogative, but I am also entitled to my opinion which I have backed up with Scripture. Unfortunately many frequent posters on this forum seem unwilling to accept that others may have different opinions to themselves which may be equally valid.

I agree @Mydoglovescheese - not particularly with your comment about other members - but definitely that no man knows the day or hour, not even the Son or the angels, only the Father. Thank you for responding so graciously. 💐

VincitVeritasI · 28/08/2025 23:13

@Mydoglovescheese
Agreed, in Matthew 24, Jesus said no one knows the day hour, but He also asked us to watch for signs of His return so we would not be deceived:

"At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time..."

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come."

posters on this forum seem unwilling to accept that others may have different opinions

If that was indeed directed at me, you're mistaken. There will naturally be differences of opinion when it comes to biblical prophecy. The End Times, for example, is an interesting topic of discussion but not a 'salvation issue'.

Look at it like this - If I check the weather forecast and believe it will rain heavily next Tuesday and then go out with my waterproof coat and umbrella, just in case, but you decide not to - no big deal, I'd just consider you to be rather under prepared and a little foolish.
On the contrary, if you decided to commute to work on the roof of a high speed train rather than travelling in the carriage, I would strongly warn you to get down and call the transport police as that would be a matter of life and death.

There are some beliefs, such as those found within the Nicene Creed (including that Jesus is the Son of God) which are central tenets of the Christian faith and without which a person can't claim to be a follower of Christ. It isn't mean or judgy to call this out - part of life as a Christian is to correct and call out false teaching. It is literally a matter of life and death:

'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.'
(Galatians 1:6-10).

'But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,* *so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.'
(2 Timothy 3:14-17)

About the Law, I would echo what @GentleSheep said up thread. I've posted about this before, in depth, in other threads.

Peace be with you too @Justmerach. I would love to unpack Revelation with you but haven't got the time to do it justice at the moment.

Apologies if I've derailed the thread @HootyMcBoobys!

Justmerach · 28/09/2025 18:54

Hi everyone, so the rapture predicted event has been and gone some days ago and after some people expecting it, not me, perhaps they will feel a bit flat.

I got such good responses to my questions about what was litreal/symolic/allegorical in the Book of Revalations that really helped. One though I was still wondering about how you see this was Revelation 17- he Scarlet Woman and the Scarlet Beast, the daughter of blasphemy. I thought she was may be a Holy woman at first being drunk on Saints blood etc and hiding her words but she isn't.
To you is this litreal or symbolic etc? I have read a bit on Google but getting this one into cohesive thought I've not arrived at yet.
Thank you for any help.
Keep on working in the field.

Justmerach · 29/09/2025 08:01

Hi everyone, I found this finally in one of my most trusted Bible's on the subject of the Daughter of Babylon in Rev 17 and I will go with this and say I understand it now.

I have posted it below.

Daughter of Blasphemy explain-Is this a literal woman or do they represent something different?

Answer-

The daughter of Blasphemy is not a literal woman but is a tool of Satan and is one of his devices that is used to infect the world with corruption and immorality which is judged as grievous to God. She is a symbolic figure. Look at the name she wears. It is made public and stamped on her forehead so there need be no misunderstanding concerning her true character. Her name is a compound one. First, she is “Mystery.” This indicates what has been kept or hidden and only those who have the mind of Christ can understand (Philippians 2:5). She should have stood for God and His truth but she stands for eternal wickedness. Second she is named Babylon the Great. The great system, in its worst condition just before the return of Christ. She is the culmination of all evil which we will arrive at.

Third, the last terminology is the most descriptive. “The mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth.” Her offspring is not better than she is. She is the mother of all systems and doctrines used by Satan to turn men from God. She is the parent of all that is morally loathsome. She is the Devil’s counterfeit of the true church. It is one vast system of evil. She proclaims error by corrupting truth which results in confusion. Paul represents as being a chaste virgin (2 Corinthians 11:2). This harlot is therefore symbolic of an apostate religion. She is seductive and has made all nations drunk. She is appropriately characterised by idolatry and corruption. The true church needs to stand against this.

The above has been sought from my most detailed Bible which is out of print today.

Justmerach · 29/09/2025 09:21

My fun play take on the above-

The Great Whore mighty virus and infection will tag you by one and you will fall down with a virus of spiritual death caught in the field and waters of immorality. Has it tagged you YET. Dodge it to the end to see God.