Christmas and paganism why?

[Justmerach]

I have been wondering about this and so am posting this questions as I would like to read peoples opinions. I might have known the question to this but cannot remember today for sure.
Why do people link Christmas to paganism and say like they are not buying a Christmas tree for example.

I am a Christian and I do mark the event thinking that perhaps may not have been born exactly on that day, but it is a symbolic marking. I am marking the gift of the Lord that God gave us into the world. Who atoned for our sins.
Jesus brought into the world. Christmas tree are sparkly as such as such can some of that lightness.
I like to do some Biblical themed things around that time. I know the pitfalls and used like a commercial event. Surely it is what you make of it in your heart.
With Dwhali we mark light. In Norway the festival of lights a few days before Christmas. So where is disputes for Christians. Ok, many have walked from God but we are all free to live our lives as want. We await Jesus return as Christians but we know when what his life meant.

So a quick 101 from someone who has knowledge as well. I would like an answer about the lights and Christmas tree a tradition from Norway I think.
Thank you

Interesting how Christianity originally spread and it's festivals bent in with local seasons but when British went to southern hemisphere they have Christmas midsummer. The maori in nz had their own midwinter festival. The Muslims arriving in Europe now are still trying to follow the Ramadan conventions that work at the desert equator ( fasting daylight hours is easier if it's a 12 hour day and resting in the middle of the day due to heat)

There is a lot of assumption the way we celebrate Christmas as “traditional” is how it’s always been.

As said up thread, trees being cut down, brought into the house and decorated with lights is a relatively new thing for Christians (outside of a small part of the Christian world in parts of Germany) it was Prince Albert who brought the tradition here and then it spread. We’d been a predominately Christian country for around a thousand years by that point.

there is a lot of evidence that Norse communities did decorate trees and have candles on the shortest day, but cutting them down and bringing in to the house wasn’t really common, outside of the group of Norsemen who settled in Germany.

actually having Christmas Day as a feast day rather than a holy day for prayer is a new-ish concept, it was epiphany/twelfth night /kings night that was the party and gift giving (celebrating the gifts from the kings/wise men) not Christmas Day.

I like it as well, thank you for the simplicity of your words and clarity.

If I were to take on a different religion, I would keep some of the best trappings of my previous one.
If I were to become a humanist, or a Jedi, I’d still want Christmas presents and pretty lights.

Many people of many faiths celebrate with a tree, lights and gifts, despite not being Christian. I don’t think they are less faithful as a result.

Most traditions are just that. Not religious tenets, but expressions of culture.

Why shudder at 'Xmas'? At uni we were taught that the X is an abbreviation of the Greek word for Christ. It's been in use since at least the Middle Ages.

I regard myself as loosely Christian. I believe that all religions have a portion of the truth, but that God and creation are beyond our full understanding. But Christianity is my cultural 'home'.

Pagan just means not an Abrahamic religion. I have no issue with the roots of some Christian traditions coming from other belief systems. Humans are just trying to find fragments of truth and meaning in life, festivals of light are obviously widespread and that makes me believe there must be some universal need there. I appreciate this might be different for people who believe in a more literal interpretation of Christianity as the one true religion though. Luckily no one will force you to have a tree.

@Leavesandacorns why shudder? Because I can. Reason follows:

It may well be taught at university that it is an abbreviation that has been around since the Middle Ages, and shorthand is fine for dictation or note taking. My Lord’s title/name is Christ, not X …( X is for social media). Christmas is Christ’s Mass, not x’s mass.

My value judgement is that dictation and notetaking aside, X is both lazy and disrespectful despite what has been around for years and taught at a university. However, I understand many folk who use it, maybe don’t get it, because they don’t know Christ Jesus. If others use it, I tend to ignore it. My shudder was because I typed it. Of course, opinions may vary, but that is not the subject of this thread.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here?

"Meaning [what?] is not a crime"

You seem to be talking about miraculous healing - which I know is a bit controversial in places but has a fairly strong New Testament precedent! Or was the Holy Spirit gifts bit part of a preamble that didn't get completely developed (I realise you were basically musing as thoughts occurred to you)?

well the op did offer up debating and to fully answer the question with accuracy Christians did repurpose the pagan view/version so unless you want to believe in a different origin story rather than truth, then it is what it is

About Christianity taking over Pagan things: Religion and the Decline of Magic by Keith Thomas is an interesting read. Medieval English Christianity hung on to lots of pre-Christian remnants. Not many of them survived the Reformation, but paganism had ceased to be any sort of conscious belief system in England for about 700 years by then, so to talk of 'stamping out' is trying to score a point. I think most of paganism in the UK is a recent invention. I think it's none the worse for that, in fact there's plenty for Christians to learn from it, but the idea that it's somehow authentic in a way that Christianity isn't grinds my gears a bit.

As for 'stealing Christmas from the Pagans', well, as has already been said, it's normal for people to have a shindig at the darkest time of year. So I'm not sure how creating a specific festival with a specific name, a specific date and a specific meaning is really stealing anything from anyone, though taking that festival, keeping the name and date and turning it into a consumer-fest is precisely that.

Some Protestant groups weren't keen on Christmas, but that was because it was Catholic rather than Pagan. I'm not aware of any Christians who disapprove of Christmas now.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove "Is just me that thinks that “Christian Mumsnetters” is just merely another ‘philosophy’ debating page?"

Should you not be addressing that to the OP?

X is the Greek letter Chi, the first letter of Cristos (Χριστός), which is the Greek name from which Christ is derived. It is not the X of the English language though it is the same shape. It's not meant as a disrespectful abbreviation.

The X was used along with the next Greek letter of the word Cristos (Rho) superimposed and within a circle as a symbol of Christ. This symbolism called the Chi-Rho.

The use of X may have developed in part from the Jewish reticence about using the name of God.

Today's first reading was Isaiah 60:1-6.

Worth a read for anyone looking for a link between the idea of revelation (epiphany) and celebration, gladness, joy, light, and glory, all resulting from the birth of Christ.

This is a brief excerpt:

"Rise up in splendour, Jerusalem! Your light has come,
the glory of the Lord shines upon you.
See, darkness covers the earth,
and thick clouds cover the peoples;
but upon you the Lord shines,
and over you appears His glory.
Nations shall walk by your light,
and kings by his shining radiance."

When I started this thread i didn't think it would receive that many replies at all.

I came back first and it was a bit of a task to reply time wise. Then some others posted that it was taking a different tour and that made me feel a bit sad and I didn't post in the thread again until nearly a month on. I am a person who avoids conflict in their life. I also wanted to try and enjoy the Christmas period and we was gearing up to it.

i see some interesting conversation though later has been had. Our reading yesterday was also from Isiah 60.

Let's try and be as positive as we can.

Very strange, a theatre not far from me will be putting on a naviety for the first time period in mid January. They are lovely to see but it is late. Epiphany is the 6th and I looked at my calendar to see if there be an explaniation for this, I saw Orthodox Epiphany is on January 19th. I would have preferred to have seen it last month.

I wish you the best in 2025 everyone.

It’s completely understandable to feel a bit overwhelmed, especially when things don't happen as you expect. Avoiding conflict and focusing on your well-being is a healthy approach, and it’s okay to take space when you need it.

Many people associate Christmas traditions, such as the Christmas tree, with pagan origins because certain customs predate Christianity and were later included in Christmas celebrations. For example, decorating evergreen trees during the winter was a practice in pagan festivals like Yule, symbolizing life and renewal. Over time, these traditions became linked to Christmas as Christianity spread. It’s a topic with a lot of historical and cultural layers, so people’s opinions have varied widely in this thread. It's just disappointing that it was derailed by goady people who have nothing better to do.

Thank you for taking the time to reply MobilityCat. This was a very informative post that made a lot of sense to me.

I do wonder as well how the early Christian church's used to decorate for Christmas. I wouldn't be surprised if a crib has always existed.

Traditions change over time. They develop and lapse according to need.

Churches used to be decorated with pictures from bible stories, a true kaleidoscope of colour and information. The Reformation whitewashed over all that and plain and simple became the rule. Churches didn’t have pews, they were used as markets and people had meetings and milled around. Then fixed pews became the norm, now many churches are removing them and we are again a community resource and hub. Hymns have arrived, been considered raucous and inappropriate, then become classics, now to be discarded in favour of current preferences.

Traditions are transitory, their practice and meaning changing over time.

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that the nativity scene as a Christmas decoration started with St Francis. So around 1300? No idea whether that's true.

I’m an atheist that’s often had to defend my celebration of Christmas, but I genuinely did not know that fundamentalist Christians didn’t celebrate because of its pagan history. Thank you for enlightening me OP 😊

I don't think all Fundamentalists don't celebrate Christmas-but I could be wrong...

Christmas was first celebrated on December 25th in the year 336 AD in Rome. However, it became a widespread tradition in Christian communities after this.
The early Christian church likely decorated for Christmas in a much simpler way than we see today. The primary focus was on the spiritual aspects of Christ’s birth rather than elaborate decorations. However, there were some symbolic practices later as mentioned by other postets.

As far as I know only a few fundamentalist Christians don't follow Christmas traditions, and that is because they have mistaken ideas about the date and traditions of Christmas coming from paganism. But as the atheist historian Tim O'Neill points out, 'The idea that Christmas and its traditions are pagan in origin is one of those pervasive ideas that “everyone knows”... Except, when it comes to history, what “everyone knows” often turns out to be mostly or even entirely wrong.' There is no good evidence for this idea.

https://historyforatheists.com/2024/12/pagan-christmas-again/

The fundamentalist Christians that I know will go to church for Christmas services, BTW. They just don't like trees and mistletoe, etc.

I would like an answer about the lights and Christmas tree a tradition from Norway I think.

Tim O'Neill has a good section on Christmas trees. Just press here and then press on the 'Christmas Trees' link a short way down.
historyforatheists.com/2024/12/pagan-christmas-again/

An extract:

//our few references [in writings from the time] to Saturnalia or Yule or any other midwinter festivals have absolutely no references to any such thing. ... The earliest evidence for Christmas trees comes from forestry regulations from the Rhineland cities of Sundhoffen and Bergheim dating to the 1300s. These put limits on people collecting fir trees or branches in the period around Christmas [citation given here] ... Christmas trees are a medieval Christian custom, not an ancient pagan one.//

If Christmas trees had been an ancient pagan custom, I wouldn't see that as a reason to avoid them. Just as if, say, the ancient Romans had had a custom of eating figs at a festival in honour of one of their gods. Figs are made by God and I am free to eat them. I wouldn't be worshipping a Roman god by eating them.

Thank you for the replies everyone. For some time now the replies have been so informative and many were before as well.
I will check the links for everyone has shared.

I found it so interesting yesterday when CurlewKate posted that naviety scenes had perhaps been used in church's from around 1300. That is so informative as I was wondering if they could have been there from the start perhaps.

As far as I know only a few fundamentalist Christians don't follow Christmas traditions, and that is because they have mistaken ideas about the date and traditions of Christmas coming from paganism.

The evangelical Christians I know personally, don’t celebrate Xmas because the Bible doesn’t explicitly tell them to.

The JWs I know don’t celebrate due to pagan origins of most traditions.