Are some pre schools being discriminatory around children's toileting needs?.

[Warmlight1]

Is running a facility - nursery/ pre school -for any under 5s, which stipulates they have to be toilet trained/ won't support with toilet training inherently discriminatory? I'm thinking children's developmental trajectory often isn't clear at that stage. I do feel that by the time they get to school it will be happening in most cases or there would often be an established reason why not.

No

Th law says otherwise, actually.

Regardless, any setting dealing with care of under 5s is going to have accidents and is going to need to assist in cleaning up those accidents in a manner that is hopefully kind and non critical.

There’s a difference in a child having an accident to not being toilet trained at all.

Even in reception /year 1, staff expect a child to have the occasional accident. But when a child starts school and the parent admits they haven’t even taken the child out of nappies - then that’s idleness. Clearly, I’m not talking about a child with additional needs.

So, no it’s not discrimination.

There is a difference. It still happens. Cleaning up children is just part of working with children of this age, whether that’s helping change a nappy or helping change pants.

Nursery can mean different things - private day nursery or nursery attached to a primary school.

For me preschool means community style preschool - so child only attends for a few hours a day for early years education - usually from age 2 until they start school nursery/reception/foundation.

Provisions for toileting support in these different settings vary. All staff are likely to provide some level of support to a child's needs, but it will be variable.

A setting looking after a child for only a few hours is going to have much less involvement in toilet training/support than one who look after the child for 10-12 hours daily.

In terms of discrimination setting cannot refuse access to children based on their toileting ability - but settings cannot be forced to provide services they do not offer or cannot safely staff. So a parent could be asked to put a child into nappies, which the staff might agree to change but could not insist that staff took their child to the toilet hourly.

There seems to be a distinction between reactive and proactive toiletting- where some settings would clean an accident but not support the learning not to have an accident-
What's tricky is it absolutely can't be delegated completely to nurseries because it's got to be consistent. Even with parents in full time work. But you'd think then it'd work the other way round. What parents are doing has to be replicated in nursery.
In any group if 2 year olds there would be a number at various stages of toilet training. It just seems wrong to accept them at ages when they might be early stages learning and then tell parents they have to be in pull ups-
It's also a big pressure on parents and child if that's what your local setting is doing.
But I wonder if 5:1 ratio is enough to manage it all.

'what parents are doing has to be replicated in nursery'

No. not really - if you want this sort of specific care you would need a nanny who you employ yourself.

Private day nurseries usually have their own procedures that they follow for the efficient working of the nursery.

Preschools are early years education for a few short hours. They will offer educational opportunities and basic safe care for the children. You cannot ask them to provide personalised toileting strategies at the behest of parents. It would not be a reasonable request.

My child's pre school.operated 5 mornings - they would have needed to support his toilet training if this had been required. It just wasn't because of the way it occurred for him.

Also - consistency is advised by health professionals. It's the reason people bring travel potties out with them.

My DS has special needs and was still in nappies at 4 when reception started. I spent hours either on benches or in cafes because I can’t drive and had to be close by to come and change him every time he needed as school said it was their policy.
He hadn’t been diagnosed at that point and they had to teach all the other kids, very difficult and inconvenient for me but not schools fault, that’s not a teachers job.

Personally I think the capacity should be there for such a situation - course it's a funding issue- but he has a right to have his needs met alongside his peers.

Mine have both been through private nursery where they attend for 9 hours a day or so. They’ve been since they were babies, we took time off work to get them over the first hurdles of toilet training each time, but yes nursery have had to be heavily involved because the kids spend so much time there. I have found them really helpful - so much experience and they know what works. They take the kids all together to the loo before going outside or for a meal and the peer pressure helps. You mention a pre-school setting which I know from friends is different WRT toilet training but the staff:child ratios are presumably the same so I don’t really get it. Our nursery has enough staff to change the children that need it - both nappies and accidents in underwear. I couldn’t have stayed off work until mine were fully potty trained, it took months before they consistently stopped having accidents.

Were you not working at the time? If this happened with one of my kids, one adult would have had to quit their job. I’m a doctor, I’ve spent decades and done hundreds of exams to get to this point, it seems mad for me to quit to wait around the change nappies (obviously I would if needed because I love my child but it does seem like a very restricted option?)

i get that it’s not the teacher’s job to change children but this seems like a huge ask of parents who have a child with additional needs.

Well, I was planning to be back at work but it’s not been possible so far. Until he is in an appropriate school full time, I am unable. Even then, it would be hard as there is no wraparound or holiday care for SEN unless you can afford a private nanny and we have no family. it’s beyond shit but here we are.

No. Potty train your children ffs

This has always been the way for certain types of nurseries- I remember my Mum wanting to ensure my younger sister was potty trained as she couldn’t start the attached school nursery until she was.

My children private nursery we worked together for the approach for my children when they were ready.

I wish that children did have to be toilet trained if they did not have additional needs. It's one of the biggest problems in EYFS settings at the moment. Where I was teaching last year there were eight children who were not toilet trained in reception. And there was no TA as the TA had a one to one child who was out of the classroom the whole time. So almost my whole D was taken up with reminding children to go to the toilet taking children to the toilet and cleaning up after accidents. Bearing in mind there is an entire curriculum that has to be taught in reception and also that the other children who just wanted to do a jigsaw or build a robot out of washing up liquid bottles had no adult to help with that activity.

this year, I am covering in a double reception class so there are 50 children with two teachers and TA. 15 of the children are still in nappies. They have to be changed once in the morning and once in the afternoon, which takes up the entire day of the TA.

I don't think people realise what a huge drain it is in a classroom setting. There are barely enough adults as it is to look after it and of course educate the children.

A lot of parents actually expect schools to potty train their children. They genuinely do not see it as something that they should be doing and that we should be supporting..

My DGS is placed on a potty every morning for his first wee and mostly, his first poo. He’s 8 months old.
He’s being taught a pattern of behaviour.

That’s so tough I’m sorry. It’s wonderful that you’re so committed for your son.

If parents choose not to potty train it should be neglect. My niece is nearly 4 and still in nappies at night time ffs! It’s truly pathetic

you feel that they should be toilet trained before attending a childcare setting prior to school? Mine have been in nursery since ten months old, they weren’t potty trained then naturally. We did it aged 2 in plenty of time for them to be toilet trained at school. How would that work when childcare takes babies?

Night time is totally different and is dependent on physical maturity/hormones etc. You cannot always "train" for night time. Children can be 100% reliable for toileting in the day and not at night. I feel sorry for your sibling (and niece) being judged by you. Night time is no business of yours.

I agree. My child was in a full time nursery from being a baby. I followed the Nursery's lead in toilet training as I assumed (correctly) that they knew best. This was over 40 years ago and my 'child' is absolutely fine btw.

It’s a ratio situation I imagine. We are in France where children start preschool around age 3 and they must be toilet trained- it’s because the ration is one adult to 13 children.
I imagine it’s similar in the UK?
I guess the child has to stay in private nursery in the UK if not toilet trained, we don’t have that option here. The staff will help the child change if they have an accident and they do in force regular toilet breaks where the whole group has the opportunity to use the toilet.
@acourtofmistandfury like others said nighttime is different. My four year old still regularly wets at night time but my two year old hasn’t since her second birthday but coincidentally still has the odd daytime accident.

I see what you’re saying but NO. Children should be toilet trained by 3 at the latest. If a child has any suspected SEN then this should be discussed with a nursery and they SHOULD then make allowances. Other than that it’s not an unreasonable expectation.

Yes of course it is discrimination if a child is on the threshold age where neuro developmental delays are diagnosed. Developmental delays which mean that they are not ready for toilet training and yet pre schools insist that those particular children must be toilet trained. Schools cannot even do this two years later and the same children who for developmental reasons require support are given it as older children in schools.

Parents who lazily don’t toilet train are belonging to a separate category to parents who are trying to toilet train but the developmental delay precludes success.