Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

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Do children in the UK have to be vaccinated to attend school?

132 replies

AlexiaRivers · 26/07/2022 16:24

Is there a question on schools application forms that ask wether a child has had their vaccines before they start? If so do the schools prioritise based on this?

For reasons I won't go into on this thread, I have chosen not to vaccinate so am just curious if this will have an impact on the school application process when the time comes.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Wallywobbles · 28/07/2022 06:29

www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/vaccines/

Eixample · 28/07/2022 06:29

People shouldn’t have to homeschool their unvaccinated children because it’s clear from the outset they’ll never manage to teach them science or maths themselves.

passport123 · 28/07/2022 06:47

Wickywickyyow · 28/07/2022 06:14

I'm a childminder and I won't accept unvaccinated children. I really wish it was compulsory for schools too.

good for you! very sensible decision. As a by-product you avoid having to deal with very dim parents which must be nice.

Orchidflower1 · 28/07/2022 06:58

Honestly op - why would you not vaccinate???????

@AlexiaRivers @AlexiaRivers

SavoyCabbage · 28/07/2022 07:15

My ds went to school in Australia and when there was an outbreak of chicken pox or whatever unvaccinated children received a phone call from the school and they were not allowed in.

JassyRadlett · 28/07/2022 07:32

Purplewatch · 28/07/2022 01:10

JassyRadlett yet some of the vaxxed kids in her class have had measles, mumps, whooping cough, HFM, shingles, you name it...and she hasn’t caught any of it? How does your claim
make any sense? The vaxxed kids still catch these diseases and spread them.

How extraordinary that near-eradicated diseases have such prevelance in a single class! I'm surprised that UKHSA aren't doing a study on such an odd cluster.

Why do you mention HFM and shingles? What's the relevance of them here?

And do you understand the different risk profile to an unvaxxed individual of an occasional breakthrough case vs almost all children getting each of those illnesses at some point?

gogohmm · 28/07/2022 07:43

@AlexiaRivers

Please for the sake of your child get some unbiased advice on vaccination. Reading anti vax sites is full of misinformation and twisting reports to prove their world view. I know a young lady on a permanent ventilator and very little capacity to even move due to measles caught as a baby from an older child at their church whose parents didn't believe in vaccines. Your decisions have consequences for others, do you really want that on your conscience?

I have an autistic daughter, born at the time when the Wakefield scandal was in full swing - of course it crossed my mind too but I know vaccination is why babies and children no longer die of these diseases

gogohmm · 28/07/2022 07:46

@HumunaHey

Strange as it may seem to use - the kids who aren't vaccinated don't tend to come under the "neglected" banner. Far more likely to be middle class kids whose parents are into alternative health. Those into conspiracy theories are not usually anti childhood vax oddly

MajorCarolDanvers · 28/07/2022 07:47

No.

But they should.

JassyRadlett · 28/07/2022 07:48

If we're going to do Duelling Pointless Anecdotes, I rarely if ever missed a day's school, etc etc. Exposed to chicken pox dozens of times (no vaccine in my childhood in my country) and didn't catch it. Vaccines are pointless! you may crow. She didn't need a vaccine, the Good Body (TM Sidney Mitford) will take care of itself!

Until I was 21, when I did catch it, and ended up in hospital.

Just like the real-life alter-ego of my username avoided measles in childhood (partly due to social factors, partly due to luck), then caught it as an adult along with her infant daughter who died partly because she had no protection from antibodies via breastmilk.

What does this prove, you may ask? Really fuck all because they're all individual anecdotes. Apart from little Julia Romilly, who would have survived in an age of vaccinations.

gogohmm · 28/07/2022 07:53

@Coyoacan

My vaccinated dd missed under 2 weeks of school in 15 years, 5 days for chickenpox at 3 (nursery) 2 days for norovirus and one day when she smashed her head playing rugby and was on concussion protocol. Some kids are able to not catch the little viruses, nothing to do with vax status. She's grown up now, never misses work.

JassyRadlett · 28/07/2022 07:55

gogohmm · 28/07/2022 07:46

@HumunaHey

Strange as it may seem to use - the kids who aren't vaccinated don't tend to come under the "neglected" banner. Far more likely to be middle class kids whose parents are into alternative health. Those into conspiracy theories are not usually anti childhood vax oddly

I'm not sure that's quite true - the PHE figures show correlation between deprivation and lower vaccine coverage, though there are undoubtedly confounding factors involved.

Do children in the UK have to be vaccinated to attend school?
TopCatsTopHat · 28/07/2022 08:00

Countries who coerce or force their population into vaccinating have much stronger widespread anti-vaxx attitudes (which translates into school avoidance, suspicion of authority etc) than those who educate their populations well and offer it for the benefits it gives.
Personally I know which type of country I'd rather live in.
So I'm glad we don't make school conditional on vaccination even though I'm pro-vaxx

ParasiticMicrowasp · 28/07/2022 08:04

Eixample · 28/07/2022 06:29

People shouldn’t have to homeschool their unvaccinated children because it’s clear from the outset they’ll never manage to teach them science or maths themselves.

Pretty much this.

I always wonder whether people who don't vaccinate haven't read about the potential damage that these diseases can cause at all, or whether they're just happy to play the numbers and assume that it won't be their children who end up being the deaf/blind/paralysed/dead statistic (and screw the immunocompromised kids who actually can't have the vaccinations and rely on the rest of us making responsible decisions, right?).

Thegreatestshowoff · 28/07/2022 08:21

No, we’re not in the US. I do think this is one area where we should be more like there though, ditto making deadbeat dads/sperm donors pay for their offspring via payroll, rather than the state.

567and · 28/07/2022 08:30

Purplewatch · 28/07/2022 01:10

JassyRadlett yet some of the vaxxed kids in her class have had measles, mumps, whooping cough, HFM, shingles, you name it...and she hasn’t caught any of it? How does your claim
make any sense? The vaxxed kids still catch these diseases and spread them.

Unfortunately my mum thought the same so I was not fully vaccinated as a child. And no, I didn’t get as many tummy bugs as my fully vaccinated cousins (probably luck of the draw), but I can still remember the pain of mumps and trying to push my face into a pillow to make the pain stop. I also remember having measles and Rubella. Luckily for me and my sibling we didn’t get seriously ill, but I’d rather have had the vaccines than be as poorly as I was. I had chicken pox party too, so I almost had the full set of childhood illnesses. Your child will probably be lucky in that most of their classmates will have been vaccinated so they hopefully won’t have to go through what I did. Who knows if they ever want to travel further afield where vaccination rates are lower, though?

(Also, if we’re going on anecdotal evidence, no one I know knows of any child, or has a child, who is fully vaccinated that has caught any of the childhood illnesses they are vaccinated against.)

Mollymalone123 · 28/07/2022 08:40

My son’s friend was born dead and partially sighted with terrible heart problems.His mother caught rubella whilst pregnant and the effects were devastating
Never crow that your child is amazing healthy as it’s thanks to herd immunity.Lots of the diseases covered by immunisations are worse when you get them as an adult too

Mollymalone123 · 28/07/2022 08:40

Should say deaf not dead!

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2022 08:51

TopCatsTopHat · 28/07/2022 08:00

Countries who coerce or force their population into vaccinating have much stronger widespread anti-vaxx attitudes (which translates into school avoidance, suspicion of authority etc) than those who educate their populations well and offer it for the benefits it gives.
Personally I know which type of country I'd rather live in.
So I'm glad we don't make school conditional on vaccination even though I'm pro-vaxx

This is where I am.

If you can't win the argument based on the science, you won't win it by linking state power with science.

Why?

Because as a rule science is a trusted field whereas trust in the state is much lower. If you mix the two science loses.

In terms of the demographics of unvaccinated, you see patterns with income. The least deprived are generally the best educated and have best health outcomes and access to health and have the highest vaccine uptake. The most deprived have barriers to health care access and lower understanding of the importance of vaccines.

We also see cultural patterns. London has much lower uptakes than other parts of the country. This is a worry for obvious reasons. The difference is largely due to imported views about vaccines from countries which culturally have less trust in both science and the state and have more disinformation.

The most interesting thing in the uk is the lack of mainstream politicians who have an anti vaxx agenda. It just doesn't exist. Its not tolerated and its not wanted. Its just not a thing. This isn't the case in other countries. But there is still a certain fragility - anti-vaxx influencers for covid were traced online. The messages in Germany were attributed to about a dozen people worldwide, but these voices had been amplified in a very distorted fashion by social media. There are real concerns about algorithms on this.

It is important for us to examine what we know works in terms of vaccine uptake and what doesnt in a scientific way. Just as much as we follow the science over vaccines themselves.

And that shows that mandatory vaccines do not work.

Indeed by excluding children from mainstream education and child care settings for vaccine status, you might be setting up for other problems. A parent who doesn't want to listen to vaccine messages, is more likely to have been influenced by dubious internet or cultural messages - which can harm. So what other harms might a child be exposed to? That child is outside normal child protection eyesight. The child has rights to be protected even if they aren't vaccinated. And these risks are higher than the risks of being unvaccinated. We need to calculate this into our thinking on mandatory vaccination. Unvaxxed kids dont have a choice; every bit as much as immunocomprised kids don't have a choice. Who is more important - neither - we have to balance the rights and safety of the two. Hence why certain diseases are notifiable in the first place and schools have the discretion to inform and excuse immunocomprised kids from school if necessary on health grounds if there is an outbreak.

Ironically not mandating vaccines may protect immunocomprised kids more than mandating them if it increases the uptake and level of herd immunity. Which may seem perverse but is the statistical reality.

Information campaigns in low uptake communities and trust building with health care providers is a much more effective way of increasing uptake than mandating. Its more time-consuming and costly but it works. Unlike mandating.

As for the anti-vaxxers on this thread. In terms of changing minds its proven better to engage by exploring individual reasons for not taking up and unpicking them in a calm and rational way. Chastising and being confrontational is known to have the opposite effect as it entrenches, alienates and others. It becomes them v us rather than examining reasons and debunking myths in a supportive way.

If you talk to those who didn't take up covid vaccinations, you get a surprising range of common patterns - accessibility to health care, cultural and family pressures not to (including controlling behaviour from a family member), fear of needles and/or hcp (specialist clinics which advertise they are supportive of these needs have been really effective), family histories of reactions to vaccines (not all vaccines are the same and there are sometimes alternatives - its worth exploring the science and differences on this one to one - or offering extra monitoring after a vaccine) and then theres the general disinformation which just needs good quality discussion and trust building.

So my question to the OP would always be why EXACTLY don't they want vaccines and would be to say to others to listen, take time, stay calm and rational and then debunk. Leave any emotional input or feelings at the door and stick to the science. The science wins these type of arguments on merit for a reason.

And the reality is there will always be a percentage of the population who will avoid vaccines on non medical grounds even if you mandate it. So don't think that 100% vaccine rates are achievable. I'd personally argue that 100% vaccine rates are not actually desirable given what that means for consent anyway.

pimlicoanna · 28/07/2022 09:18

No but I wish they did

notapizzaeater · 28/07/2022 09:20

I find it ironic that before my dog can go to kennels I have to show my vac certificate but children don't.

Lisa2008 · 28/07/2022 09:23

Id start a thread if it was working but its not so ill ask here. My 6 month old had her 20 week jags the other day . They kept cancelling previous apps. Got a call afterwards saying they gave her anothr men b vaccine by mistake !! Shes fine but wwyd ? Im furious and i dont k ow what to do !!

yikesanotherbooboo · 28/07/2022 09:27

I think one should have safe guarding concerns about a child who hasn't been vaccinated and on this basis we can't also exclude them from the monitoring that happens as a result of attending school.Luckily in this country the numbers are small but I totally agree that for vulnerable DC and their families it is tough.making it a divisive issue isn't helpful we just need to encourage education and offer plenty of opportunities for the DC to receive their deserved health care.

Bubbleguppette · 28/07/2022 09:36

Well yes, @Bubbleguppette, there are no comparative studies, so we are just left with anecdotes.

I'm afraid you are very much mistaken about this, @Coyoacan.

ObviouslyNotNow · 28/07/2022 09:42

Fantastic post, @RedToothBrush

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