does anyone know why we don't vaccinate against chicken pox?

[cheapandchic]

is it purely the cost to the nhs?

CoteDAzur do France not vaccinate for chicken pox? DD's paediatrician is in Luxembourg and she's been vaccinated (along with Rotavirus and one of the Hepatitis, and MMR and I don't know what else). I assumed they would be following France's lead as they tend to do that a lot with medical care.

"Really tethers? Personally, I thought the unicorns were the real low point."

" Oh how horrible these medieval times are. I wish I were living whenever you think you are living"

I tell you what, I want that sense of humour vaccine you've both had. it's worked a treat, you are completely unafflicted by one

Sofia, I'm really glad you've finally been taken seriously and that you've found a treatment. I hope it works for him :)

Just want to chip in again to say that one shouldn't assume otherwise healthy children won't be at risk of complications from chickenpox.

My DD is a strong, healthy child who hasn't missed a day at school since she started last year. And yet here we are, day 10 in hospital, all because of the complications that arose from her (extremely mild) bout of chickenpox.

I assumed that, because she was strong and healthy, the swelling on her face couldn't be anything serious, as the sources I consulted implied that it was mostly those children with a compromised immune system were really at risk.

However, despite a doctor's diagnosis that suggested nothing serious was wrong, I expressed my concerns here on mumsnet and was strongly encouraged to get DD to A&E. Thank god I did, because had I left her sleeping in her bed that evening she could well have ended up in intensive care. As it was, she was very ill indeed.

People - myself included - just don't realise that when complications do arise they can be absolutely debilitating, even life threatening. We are not made aware of the danger signs to look out for.

I was talked out of getting DD vaccinated against CP by our doctor a few months ago. I truly wish I had stood my ground.

Gastro, I remember reading your post about your daughter's face swelling. What did it turn out to be? Was it an infected spot? I hope she's on the mend now. I do agree that there should be more awareness about signs of complications.

Bumbley, it was cellulitis caused by a streptococcal infection, which must have entered via one of her chickenpox spots. Poor thing never scratched once, and we disinfected every single spot so carefully, but there were a couple of spots on her face that were a bit yucky because her hair was sticking to them, and the docs think the infection came from there.

This sort of infection can develop into meningitis if left untreated. Am so grateful to all the MNers who advised us to go to A&E. I get shivers when I think how close I was to letting her just sleep peacefully instead.

Poor girl :( I'm glad she's on the mend now. Cellulitis is awful. My uncle got cellulitis after he got a small cut on his leg and then ended up with MRSA! I think someone started a thread recently trying to raise awareness about cellulitis. You can get it from something as small as an insect bite!

Oh my I love how a simple post can create such a debate.

I can't believe I posted this a few days ago. Yesterday I decided that I was going to vaccinate both my girls. Appointment for doctor on wednesday...and guess what??

I think my toddler has it!! Just saw three suspicious looking spots and both girls have been sick looking and feeling.

Now I am in a panic. I am so upset I didn't do it sooner. Just read another article about a 12 month old dying from the pox. And as a result the hospital now gives antibiotics to all kids with the pox. Should I get antibiotics? I am horrified that my 2 year old and poor 8month old might now suffer something I could have prevented.

I spent a lot of time in America and I do think they give too many jabs. I also think the healthcare system is horrendous. Trust me the nhs has many faults but no where near as many as the US system. However I do think this pox vaccination should be more available here. I had an extremely bad case of it as a child. I disagree thats its a mild thing!

On a side note- where is the evidence that the BCG is useless. Can you point me towards some info on that? My girls both had it because we have family in Africa and travel there often so I was told it was a good idea. Useless? I am upset now.

Chic, don't panic. The vast majority of children come through CP without even a minor complication. You just tend to hear about the cases where there is a complication more often (particularly on threads like these) but proportionally those cases are very very small. I've never heard of antibiotics being given unless there is a secondary infection. I think doctors are reluctant to give them unnecessarily. Have a look around in the children's health section. There are always lots of CP threads and there is some great advice about helping with itching etc.

It's not that BCG is useless. It's just quite erratic depending on the strain of TB and once you have had the BCG it's much more difficult to test whether you have TB. I assume that it must be effective against the strains that are common in the UK which is why it is still given there. In the USA you are required to have your child tested every couple of years for TB (for school entry) so it becomes problematic if they have had the BCG. I suspect that either method (vaccination or routine testing) is effective if applied with rigor and routinely.

It offers some protection in children against TB meningitis but very limited protection against pulmonary TB (effectiveness varies between 0 and 80%) and only for between 10-15 years. I don't think boosters are given at all in the UK. According to the NHS there is limited evidence that it is effective in over 16s and no evidence that it is effective for over 35s. (it is not recommended for over 35s) It has been known to be ineffective for quite some time and there are lots of studies into how to improve it and into finding an alternative.

PetiteRaleuse - No, France doesn't vaccinate against CP. You can go and ask for it privately. I know one precious mum who did this so her DDs wouldn't have any scars.

My two DC have both had it. DD doesn't have any scars. DS has one that is so tiny and shallow that you can't see it if you don't go looking for it.

OP - Just ride it out. I'm sure your pediatrician has explained it all, but you just need to watch out if any of the spots get infected and if so, clean them properly. I'm sure it will be fine.

People actually don't vaccinate because of unproven, panic-fuelled concerns? They subject their child to the risk of 'wild' dangerous illnesses with know child mortality and serious disabling consequences because they don't agree with vaccinations?

SMH too.

Dr Rosemary was talking about this on BBC Breakfast a while ago. Essentially, we don't vaccinate for CP because it keeps shingles - a much nastier disease - under control. Every time you encounter CP your immune system gets a little boost and shingles becomes less likely.

OP - if you're going to Africa certainly have the BCG.

I have one unvaccinated child [had problem free pox] and recently vaccinated youngest as pox doing rounds and if got chicken pox at wrong time would mean cancelling flight to see elderly relatives abroad. Just felt I couldn't take the risk of cancelling trip for that reason. [Did get grief from parents re being precious].

Thanks cotedazur I assumed France would vaccinate. I didn't even question it as being part of DD's vaccinations in Luxembourg - before it was done I didn't know it (the jab) existed. I had CP as a child (and have no scars) but remember it being unpleasant and just assumed it was something new which was done everywhere now.

All vaccinations have known child mortality and serious disabling consequences. You won't give a sh*t until it happens to you.

where can I find this evidence that the BCG is not so effective? where did you get those facts?

false alarm no pox. I really think I might get the vaccination.

I really don't understand what people have against jabs??? If you could prevent your child, even if it only gives a lesser chance of getting something like measles or pox or swine flu or whatever...why wouldn't you do it?
I just don't get it?

The BCG doesn't last that long. But if you're doing it for a specific trip, that's another matter. There are some vehement anti-vaxxers on MN, they all think they are more intelligent than the rest of us.

cheapandchic - here you go This is just one of many sources that gives the 0-80% effectiveness figure that I quoted earlier.

"Mycobacterium bovis bacillus Calmette-Guérin (BCG) has been the vaccine of choice given to humans via the skin for over 80 years and has shown variable efficacies of between 0 and 80% in clinical studies "

here is another one from the CDC

"In young children, the
estimated protective efficacy rates of the vaccine have ranged from 52% to 100% for
prevention of tuberculous meningitis and miliary TB and from 2% to 80% for prevention of pulmonary TB"

and

"The largest community-based controlled trial of
BCG vaccination was conducted from 1968 to 1971 in southern India. Although two
different vaccine strains that were considered the most potent available were used in
this study, no protective efficacy in either adults or children was demonstrated 5 years
after vaccination. These vaccine recipients were re-evaluated 15 years after BCG vaccination, at which time the protective efficacy in persons who had been vaccinated as
children was 17%; no protective effect was demonstrated in persons who had been
vaccinated as adolescents or adults"

The main protection for children is for TB meningitis (quite unusual in the UK) but it is no longer that effective (or reliable) in protecting against pulmonary TB particularly in adults.

As I mentioned earlier, the NHS website itself says that there is limted evidence that it protects over 16s and virtually no evidence that it protects over 35s. I'm not really sure what you are supposed to do for yourself if you're travelling to Africa as an adult

BCG ineffective

"There are some vehement anti-vaxxers on MN, they all think they are more intelligent than the rest of us".
When I was at school, you were supposed to be able to read, think for yourself and make your own decisions, now it's against the law?