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A short sad history of ME/CFS

143 replies

clouty · 23/07/2010 13:23

I'm posting a history lesson, because it has huge implications for public health, and that includes the health and well being of you and your family. I was never one for a conspiracy theory, preferring to favor the muck-up theory of misdirection and error, but I have done a lot of studying in the last eighteen months, since I have been ill, and I am afraid the evidence is all there to support the following hypothesis. I am fighting for effective treatment, and that will take an increased awareness of the problem, hence this post.

For more than two decades, a deliberate muddying of the diagnosis of a serious chronic neuro-immune disease has misdirected much research. The disease Myalgic Encephalomyelitis was renamed Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, by the Centre for Disease Control in the USA, in the late 80's.

Because the criteria for diagnosis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis has been weakened to the point that the people diagnosed as could include those without neurological symptoms, because the criteria (CDC's Fukuda 1994(1) and worse, the 2005 revised version(2) and the British Oxford definition(3)) diagnosed as people who had unrelated illnesses, the common ground being chronic fatigue, the research could not and did not reliably study Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

The fake diagnostic criteria mentioned above also deliberately proscribed the many tests that would allow for a positive diagnosis, rather than a diagnosis of exclusion.

Meanwhile, people who actually had myalgic encephalomyelitis were misunderstood, mistreated and marginalised.

This process of confusing a specific biological disease with the very common symptom of Chronic fFatigue began at about the time that the financial impact of another illness caused by a retrovirus, HIV/AIDS, was becoming clear. The patients with ME/CFS were not dying like flies, and their illness helped make them invisible, as most were housebound and unable to protest, impoverished by years of illness. The disease became a stigma, patients were assumed to be depressed and lazy, yet ironically and conversely they were also and at the same time accused of being type A personalities who had burned out.

Neither of these explanations were true, for those placed in the ME/CFS patient cohort who actually had Myalgic Encephalomyelitis by the Canadian Consensus Criteria(4). These patients were suffering a neuro-immune disease caused by an unknown pathogen, perhaps viral, perhaps retroviral. It was a devastating disease, described by some patients as a living death. A percentage of patients were bed bound, tube fed, on morphine pumps and unable to tolerate light or noise. Many of the infected were teachers or medical professionals, and some families had two or more people who were ill with CCC ME (Canadian Consensus Criteria / Myalgic Encephalomyelitis).

The cost of treating these patients (there were more of them than in the HIV crowd) was something that governments were happy to avoid, dealing as they were already with HIV/AIDS, and helping to avoid tackling this illness head on created a career path for the unscrupulous, deluded and greedy.

Two and more decades on, private funding into ME/CFS by the parents of a young sufferer helped to refocus some (not all, more later) of the scientific community on seeking the true causation of CCC ME. The Whittemore Peterson Institute at last held out some hope, for people who had been seriously ill for decades. They published a study in Science in October 2009(5), showing by one method that 67% of those CCC ME patients tested had a retrovirus, Xenotropic Murine leukemia-virus Related Virus. A second testing method showed XMRV in 95% of the patient cohort.

Within weeks, another study was published in PlosOne(6), (7), after allowing 3 days for peer review. The WPI study was under peer review for six months. This new British study was commissioned by the notorious psychiatrist, Simon Wesseley, who had managed, over the last couple of decades, to become the pundit on all things CFS. Here are some quotes from him:

Professor Wessely has said:
"In Britain, people with chronic fatigue think that if they do too much the virus that caused it is still there and will come back and make them worse. That is catastrophising the illness. They don't think like that in France and they don't have the same outcomes. It is how you respond to symptoms that determines the outcome."

"We?re not going to go doing more and more tests to find out, well what was the virus, because frankly, even if we found it, there?s nothing we?re going to do about it.?

" What lies behind all this talk of viruses and immunity ?... In consequence, talk of viruses and the immune system is now deeply embedded in popular consciousness ... Viruses are an attribution free from blame ... there's no blame, no shame and no stigma ... and here is the virus research doctor himself to protect us from that shame... And what is it he delivers? Respect!"

"Many patients referred to a specialized hospital with chronic fatigue syndrome have embarked on a struggle. This may take the form of trying to find an acceptable diagnosis, or indeed, any diagnosis. One of the principal functions of therapy at this stage is to allow the patient to call a halt without loss of face. ..... [M.E. patients are in] a vicious circle of increasing avoidance, inactivity and fatigue....... "

"Most CFS patients fulfil diagnostic criteria for psychiatric disorder. Other symptoms include muscle pain and many somatic symptoms, especially cardiac, gastrointestinal and neurological. .... Do any of these symptoms possess diagnostic significance? The answer is basically negative... The description given by a leading gastro-enterologist at the Mayo clinic remains accurate. 'the average doctor will see they are neurotic and he will often be disgusted with them.' "

"Validation is needed from the doctor. Once that is granted, the patient may assume the privileges of the sick role (sympathy, time off work, benefits, etc)"

The man's cruelty knows no bounds. It would not be that extreme to accuse him, and his American counterpart, Bill Reeves (of the CDC), of a crime against the human rights of a seriously physically ill group of patients.

Since the Imperial College/Wessely paper was published in PlosOne, there have been other negative studies, and other positive studies. All the negative studies have two things in common. They used the loosest definition of the disease, either the Oxford or the Amended Fuduka (CDC 2005), and they failed to use the methods that were used by the WPI, despite having been given access to the techniques and positive control samples.

As someone said "They forgot to take the lens cap off the microscope"

The really sad thing about all this is that if good research had been allowed centre stage in the late 80's and early 90's, when Dr. Elaine DeFreitas(8) first found a retrovirus in CCC ME patients, and if related research had been given the backing that it warranted, then many many fewer people would now be infected with XMRV.

This gamma retrovirus, XMRV, was first found in cases of Prostate Cancer (>30%), and has also been found in other sarcomas and Autistic Spectrum Disorder patients. It is possible that this, or other retroviruses are responsible for causing Parkinsons Disease, Alzheimers, Multiple Sclerosis, and other brain and nervous system malfunctions.

A retrovirus is distinguished from other viruses by it's ability to insert genetic material into the host's DNA, effectively hijacking the host cells for its own ends. They are sneaky, lazy, and they make you ill. To date, we know of three exogenous human retroviruses: HIV, HTLV and XMRV. They all make people sick.

There is a lot of work to do yet before we discover the full impact of exogenous retroviruses on humans, but a great start has been made. And yet, in the UK, all public Medical Research Council funding for ME/CFS goes to psychological research.

When questioned why this is, the MRC say that "no applications of sufficient quality asking for funding for medical research into CFS have been submitted". This is patently untrue(9). Between 2002 and 2008 there were 33 applications for funding for biomedical research into CCC ME.

The truth is that the Department of Health, umbrella department of the MRC and the NHS, rely on Simon Wessely, Peter White, Trudy Chalder and other psychiatric types for advice, and this group have built an influential empire on muddying the definition and mistreating the patients with CCC ME.

They believe that exercise and CBT is all we need to get well. Currently, there is a study in process at Bristol University of the Lightning Process® under Dr Esther Crawley(10). They are going to subject children, some of whom really will have CCC ME, to a positive thinking regime sold by a pyramid selling technique, and invented by Phil Parker, who is doing very nicely thank you. This cannot be said for those CCC ME patients who have been through this process. As with the NHS program of Graded Exercise Therapy, the course encourages patients to ignore the symptoms of their disease. If this was all in the mind, then yes, it may work. But for children with a serious neuro-immune disease, it can, and has, aggravated symptoms to the point where they can no longer function independently at all, and are consigned bed, relying on others for all personal care.

Esther Crawley's study will include 90 children between the ages of 8 and 18. This is unethical, when there has yet to be a study of the Lightning Process® in adults. The strange thing is, Phil Parker does not allow criticism of his results on his website (and there is criticism, oh yes(11)).

People do die of complications of CCC ME: of cancers, of heart disease, of suicide because they can't stand the pain any more. Here is a list in memorium. It is by no stretch of the imagination extensive, or comprehensive.

1/ www.annals.org/content/121/12/953.full?guid=on (Fukuda 1994)
2/ www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/3/19/ (Reeves 2005)
3/ www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1293107/pdf/jrsocmed00127-0072.pdf (The Oxford Definition)
4/ www.co-cure.org/ccpccd.pdf (Canadian Consensus Criteria)
5/ www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1179052 (WPI study, 10/09)

6/ www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/340/feb25_1/c1099 (Wessely/McClure Imperial College XMRV study - I see no ships!)
7/ www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/340/feb25_1/c1099#231969 (be sure to expand the comments section)

8/ www.ncf-net.org/forum/revelations.html (on the DeFreitas study,1991)

9/ www.meresearch.org.uk/information/publications/casetoanswer.html (MRC funding bias explored)

10/ www.bris.ac.uk/news/2010/6866.html (Bristol Lightning Process study)
11/ www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/3/19/0 (criticism of the Lightning Process)

OP posts:
DBennett · 24/07/2010 17:17

Maybe I need to be plainer regarding my thinking on XMRV.

The Lombardi study found a high number of CFS subjects (who fulfilled criteria for both Fukada and Canadian definition) with XMRV and did a variety of measures:

Nested PCR
XMRV RNA Phylogeny
Flow Cytometry for XMRV in White Blood Cells
Western Blots for XMRV in WBC
Identification of which WBC were infected
Detection of XMRV antibodies in patients

So what did these measures tell us?

Nested PCR, Flow Cytometry for XMRV in White Blood Cells and Western Blots for XMRV in WBC
all indicate that many of the CFS subjects have XMRV.

XMRV RNA Phylogeny reassures us that it is unlikely the results were due to contamination at the lab.

Identification of which WBC were infected comes up with odd results.
They found that both B & T cells were infected.
Which has to happen early in their life
cycle.
So early, we might expect bone marrow pathology, such as leukaemia in CFS patients. Just like we did when this virus was used in a gene treatment study.
But they don't.

Detection of XMRV antibodies in patients is a nice touch, really reinforces the idea that CFS subjects have the virus.

So, we have correlation between CFS and XMRV in a tightly defined group.
Not causation and some unusual readings but definitely worth further study.

Studies from Holland, Erlwein and Groome in the UK and in the US.

Some of these studies are larger, some smaller (the Dutch study for example would be unable to determine levels of XRMV reliably if it was presnt in less than 7% of cases).
Some used similar testing mechanism, some used more senstive and specific measures.

None of these studies found a correlation between XRMV and CFS.

So the question becomes why the discrepency?

Some of this could be location, there has been a difference between US and European studies when looking at XRMV in prostrate cancer.
But the other US study can't be discounted in this way.

And some could be exclusion criteria. WPI have been criticised for not making their methodology clear in this regard but regardless of the criteria used I think it is agreed there is considerable overlap between them.
Even if (and it is still an "if") the Canadian Criteria rules out CFS cases which are morew likely to be non-viral, it is inplausable to suggest it would rule them all out (WPI state that all their subjects fit both demonstrating that the criteria is not mutually exclusive).

If it was criteria related you'd expect some XRMV in the other studies (less perhaps) but none is hard to explain.

So at the minute, we have one study.
Which has been over-hyped, often by the authors.
Who happen to sell testing kits for this virus at $450 a pop.
And there has been a discouraging style of discourse by some of the researchers.

None of this means that XRMV or retro-viruses in general, or viruses at large does not have a role in CFS.

But it does point towards it being a smaller and less straight-forward link than the OP suggested.

backtotalkaboutthis · 24/07/2010 17:24

Clouty, this was very interesting. Thanks. Wish you well.

dinamum · 24/07/2010 17:26

Last post on this and then backing off!

I am confused. I have had ME and was bedbound for a year had to have a feeding tube and oxygen.I was unable to lift my head or turn over in bed. My condition at times was life threatening and ME was confirmed by two specialist ME consultants.

I tried many types of treatment and the only one that worked for me was LP. But it is not the LP you are discussing here. There was no positive thinking, no brainwashing and no blame if I got it wrong. It took me a while to recover and was not immediate and at times was hard work.

However I do find it frustrating that some people are so reluctant to accept it can help many ME suffers. I had young children and was a liability to my family I could do nothing - I would have done anything to get better.

The reason it is not on the NHS has nothing to do with success rate - allergy clincs are proven to help allergy suffers but there are not many of them to be found on the NHS. Many GPs who have had experience of ME sufferers recommend LP. In fact it was my GP who suggested I gave it a try.

It is your right to chose not to do LP but by posting on an open forum your opinions and views as fact, can confuse and deter other people from making up their own mind, on something that could help them to be better.

I personally would take advice from people that had got well rather than those who are still struggling with the illness.

It does seem that LP can not win in the eyes of some people your quote "The majority of comments written about LP on the web are overwhelmingly positive, which I find surprising and suspicious.

Even when there are positive comments you take that as a negative thing!

I wish you all well and that you do find relief from this terrible illness. It is so debilitating but there is hope out there if you keep an open mind and challenge your view on the illness.

I do not feel the need to defend LP anymore my life is now back on track and I do not want to dwell on the misery that ME was to me.

polyanna · 24/07/2010 17:33

Well said Clouty. I believe that the people "helped" by LP are not people with CCC ME and are probably people with other forms of fatigue where positive thinking is of benefit. I have had ME since 1990 and am very positive in the knowledge that I have an illness process going on in my body that does not respond to currently available treatments. Blood tests and autoimmune processes have indicated that to be the case. I am thrilled for the people who's condition responds to LP. But to offer it as a cure all for every ME/CFS person is like offering paracetomol to mend a broken leg without adding a plaster!
It isnt cynicism that convinces people with ME that there seems to be an agenda in keeping ME in the psychiatric arena. The evidence is plain to see in the numerous Local Multi Disciplinary Teams set up in England where in many cases a medical examination is not even offered on referral-how risky is that? I am all in favour of offering emotional support to anyone with a chronic illness-it would be cruel not to but please lets have all the other elements in place too as well as appropriate research. There has been no MRC funded organic research in the UK-fact.
The WPI's XMRV UK study currently underway will silence the doubters once and for all.
Then perhaps the UK government will follow the lead of Australia, Canada and New Zealand by banning the donation of blood by people with ME thereby protecting those so far unnaffected.

sharbie · 24/07/2010 17:35

I am very glad to hear you are recovering DM but some people do recover spontaneously from ME type illnesses.
I believe the negative comments on LP are routinely deleted from forums etc - someone is making a lot of money from very ill people.

LC9 · 24/07/2010 18:10

D Bennet

"So early, we might expect bone marrow pathology, such as leukaemia in CFS patients. Just like we did when this virus was used in a gene treatment study.
But they don't."

Firstly, the definitions of CFS used in the USA and UK are so broad that we have no idea how many patients do go on to develop cancer. Secondly, no longitudinal study has been undertaken into CFS patients in order to determine this. The prevalence of mantel cell lymphoma in Dr Peterson own practice is 5%, the norm being around 0.05%, I believe.

Can I ask what you mean by "Just like we did when this virus was used in a gene treatment study. "

The negative studies have not detect XMRV in either controls nor CFS patients. However, a study from Germany did find a similar rate of XMRV in the controls as the 'Science' paper, 3.5%. This study was looking at transplant patients, and also found the virus in the respiratory tracts of patients, 10%.

Therefore Geographical distribution is unlikely to account for the negative studies.

Studies into XMRV and prostate cancer have also produce negative and positive results, when different methodology is used.

The 'Science' study was accused of not making their criteria clear, but this was easily rebuffed by them in science magazine. There is actually a great deal of difference between the Canadian and the Fukuda criteria, and the Oxford and Revised Fukuda, which were used by 2 of the four negative studies. But again, some patients and controls should be found to be infected with XMRV. Therefore it is likely that the methodology, not the criteria or location is the reason for the negative studies. So far none of these have attempted to replicate the 'Science paper'

Can I point out that you are claiming that the study has been over-hyped, that is not what some of the world leading retrovirologist have said, or the majority of CFS experts. Im not sure why you are linking to a blog of a student to support the idea that there has been "a discouraging style of discourse by some of the researchers. "

The test is available, that is true, this was partly done to counteract an unvalidated test from another lab. The organisation is also non profit.

So far the negative studies have proven nothing, accept that their test cannot detect the virus. Indeed the CDC study was designed to not detect XMRV. This may surprise you, but this accusation comes from a Dr you used to work at the CDC and now works for the CFIDS Association.

Finally, a positive study from the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration is imminent.

PositiveAttitude · 24/07/2010 18:16

Dinamum Well said and thank you for posting such a positive post. I hope you continue to do well and enjoy a healthy life with your family.
the most helpful post on here by far!!

LC9 · 24/07/2010 18:16

dinamum

It's great to hear that you are better.

The definition used in the UK and USA are very heterogeneous. They include patients who have a number of causes for their fatigue. I use the word fatigue, not to say this is all you had, but that is all you really need to meet the criteria laid out in the NICE guidelines. This was not always the case, and hopefully in the future the Canadian criteria will be adopted. Therefore recovery can be for many, many reasons.

Furthermore, the LP has not been studied for its effects on any disease as of yet, therefore it is impossible to attribute your recover to that process.

DBennett · 24/07/2010 18:56

Reference to reports from viral therapy trial.

Can I get one for the german study?

The methodology of the other studies are more than comparable to the Lombardin study.

In fact, the subtle differences would strengthen the case for XMRV and CFS.

In the same way that measuring the same thing numerous ways supports the conclusin.

I am saying the paper is overhyped, as are others.

The paper doesn't (and in fact can't) demonstrate causation.
Yet this has not stopped the researchers inferring a causative relationship and working on trials of ARV medications.

This is premature.

The company selling the test is not non-profit unlike the WPI (which is funded by the family of someone with CFS) and authors from the Lombardi are also employed by this company.

As for linking to a students blog, I could have linked to the Reno gazette (or a report of it but the blog was in my favourites.

And to make an accusation like

"They skewed their experimental design in order to not find XMRV in the blood"

is very unusual in scientific debate. And it rarely signifies a strong posistion.

As to the immenent publication you mention, I hope it appears soon and definetly hope it's results are unambiguous to add light to this issue.

But that may be optomistic.

polyanna · 24/07/2010 19:18

A UK study currently being undertaken by the WPI has already shown preliminary results of 70% positivity in 50 ME/CFS participants. So it is in the UK despite the doubters. So what will the UK government do then? Bury its head in the sand again.

LC9 · 24/07/2010 20:30

This is the German study www.cdc.gov/eid/content/16/6/pdfs/10-0066.pdf

The methodology of the other studies is different. 'Similar' is not the 'same'.

Many, many highly respected scientist have said that it is as good a first paper as you will ever get. The only people who have said the exact opposite, are those who have staked their careers on there not being an organic cause for the disease.

The paper never said it demonstrated causation, this will take many more years to discover.

The scientist's involved in the study have not put people on ARV's, that is nonsense. There are however reports of some patients trying them.

It is to be expected that a scientists will now propose different hypotheses on how XMRV may be causing disease, they are doing this with prostate cancer also. It is also reasonable to hypothesise why this virus may be present in such a high number of CFS patients and prostate cancer patients. This is the scientific process, and is not premature. They would not be holding the 1st International XMRV conference, with talks on prostate cancer and CFS, if it were.

It is non profit, the WPI owns the lab.

They did skew their design, and therefore could not find XMRV. The CDC did the same thing. Whereas the 3rd study that appeared in the BMJ, omitted to published crucial information, and were caught doing so.

Here is a link to slides that mention the positive NIH/FDA study: www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa.nsf%2Fv-Ho mePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed
I believe they have found the virus at around 80% CFS patients, and somewhere around 3 to 7% for controls.
These slides were used as part of a presentation, in Zegreb, a couple of months ago. The study will be published in PNAS

DBennett · 25/07/2010 09:11

Isn't anything below 4% margin of error for PCR?

And I don't find it hard to believe that immune compromised individuals collect viruses.

I agree that the Lombardi study is a good paper but it is still only one paper, unreplicated to date.

And the WPI seem somewhat disengenous on the idea of retrovirus treatment. The following passage from the sections aimed at individuals with CFS:

"It is possible that antiviral therapies developed for other retroviruses may be useful against another RNA virus like XMRV. However, these are generally toxic therapies with considerable side effects making it imperative that one be very careful before beginning any new therapies. Obviously, only begin any therapies approved by your physician."

And

"there are Immune modulating treatments and antivirals/antimicrobials that have been used successfully, if the patient is given a complete examination with tests to identify immune dysfunction and microbial infections treatment strategies can greatly improve if not cure the patient"

stand at odds with their lawyers release on the matter.

In addition, surely facilitating the testing for XMRV is supportive of treatment of XMRV.
Why else would you make that available?

As regards the lab, the situation seems to mirro a biotech firm being linked to university. The firm is going to aim to make a profit, some of that money is going to head back to the non-profit but the private company will have very different renumeration rates.
But I'm happy for us to leave that distinction, financial incentives are rarely worth commenting on.

Did you mean the Dodd slides from Zagreb?
I can't find any new data in there.

In fact, the slides appear very reasonable:

Only mention the Fukada definitionis mentioned.
Absense of consensus aknowledged.
No claim that XMRV causes CFS.
Lombardi study does not demonstrate causality.
XMRV intervention should be limited to strictly research level.

In fact it ends up by saying that no policy should change until with have a data consensus.

Which isn't bad advice.

polyanna · 25/07/2010 10:34

"And I don't find it hard to believe that immune compromised individuals collect viruses."
But these people are not accepted as being "immune compromised" thats the trouble. For the most part they are seen as people who will get well if they do CBT, GET and LP type therapies. That is the major problem no one is testing for immune dysfunstion in these people. If they did then it would clearly sort out the CFS from the ME. Also the official UK opinion is that XMRV is not in the UK when in fact it is!

"XMRV intervention should be limited to strictly research level."
Yes that will probably be the case and well done to the brave people who will volunteer to take part in this. It will be a good place to start.

LC9 · 25/07/2010 12:10

I won't bother with the bits that have been answered.

"Isn't anything below 4% margin of error for PCR?"
Then 67% in CFS patients is a very solid number.

I think you are confusing the question hanging over XMRV and CFS, with the question of whether XMRV exists. There is complete agreement that it does. Therefore if it causes disease, which will require further testing, then Anti Retro Viral's will be used. (It's not like you could use a plaster) Also, labs all over the world are now researching which ARV's are effective against XMRV, and some have already published. The WPI statement's are therefore entirely reasonable, and in line with current thinking.

Just to be clear, there is no conflict in the two items you have highlighted. They are both saying, ARV's are the normal treatment for a retrovirus, that further research is being undertaken, but as yet none have been tested, but once they are approved, physician's will be able to proscribe them. It's quiet plain.

You further comments this matter are disingenuous and misleading.

No the lab is nonprofit. What you are saying is libellous.

The slides from the positive XMRV replication study, from the NIH/FDA says the exact opposite of what you have put. They SAY:

"We (FDA & NIH) have independently confirmed the Lombardi group findings."

&

Although blood transmission to humans has not been proved, it is probable"

&

"The association with CFS is very strong, but causality not proved"

&
"XMRV and related MLV's are in the donor supply with an early prevalence estimate of 3%-7%"

They do not say that policy should not change. They say further research is needed, and that we should err on the side of caution. That is why they have recommended CFS patients do not donate blood in the USA. Your comments are attempting to again mislead people. The good thing is that anyone can read the slides for themselves.

www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa.nsf%2F v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

DBennett · 25/07/2010 12:27

Is it the Dodds slides you're talking about?

Your link goes to the front page of the conference, there are a number of slide shows archived there.
Dodds seems to be the only one linked to XMRV.

Am I mistaken?

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:23

Sorry, here is the link again. It is the Alter slides.

www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa .nsf%2F%20v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:25

That didn't work, try this, and select 'session 4', then '1-Alter.pdf'

www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa% 2Fipfa.nsf%2F%20v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:27

eeeeek it's all going wrong.

Go here
www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa.nsf% 2F%20v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

And under session 4, select 1-Alter.pdf

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:28

It appears you can only assess it from the main page.

So go here:

www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa.n sf%2F%20v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

Select:
Available Presentations of the IPFA/PEI 17th Workshop on "Surveillance and Screening of Blood Borne Pathogens", 26 - 27 May 2010

Then under session 4, select 1-Alter.pdf

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:29

This is getting silly. Try this

Go here:
www.sanquin.nl/ipfa/ipfa.nsf/Web%20Body?OpenFrameSet&Frame=Body&Src=%2Fipfa%2Fipfa.nsf %2F%20v-HomePage%2F%24first!OpenDocument%26AutoFramed

Select:
Available Presentations of the IPFA/PEI 17th Workshop on "Surveillance and Screening of Blood Borne Pathogens", 26 - 27 May 2010

Then under session 4, select 1-Alter.pdf

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:32

The link from the wall street journal article works, so here is the link to that.

blogs.wsj.com/health/2010/06/23/further-evidence-of-an-xmrv-chronic-fatigue-connecti on/

The link is at the 6th paragraph, and is the word 'here'.

LC9 · 25/07/2010 13:34

Just remove the space between the i and o in the word connection.

DBennett · 25/07/2010 13:56

Thanks for the directions.

Alter's paper, when it is released, will no doubt be something to talk about.

But as he is not commenting on it at this time.
And it would seem to be premature for us to do so.

Shall we postpone this debate until it is released?

polyanna · 25/07/2010 16:11

Yes I think it is a good idea to delay further discussion here until the Alter paper is out-especially from people who have not read the info and followed the issue of XMRV so far. But the WPI appear to be on to something. I know of several young mums who had their children after getting ME and breast fed them too. So it is a worry. I took ill following a blood transfusion after a C section fed that baby and then went on to have baby no2 and fed him too. Until this is thoroughly investigated then it is a big worry for everyone concerned. They say that there is no smoke without fire and Judy Mikovitis of the WPI spoke very convincingly about it at the Invest in ME Conference this May so her career is on the line if she and her team are wrong.

LC9 · 25/07/2010 17:01

Normally, yes postponing the debate would be a good idea. Unfortunately, the USA Government has put the paper on hold, because of the enormous world wide implications of the discovery. So right now people are fighting to have this information released, but I will leave it at that for now. Hopefully, the rumour that the paper is immanent, will come true very soon.