The Narnia books - oh my goodness

[BellaBear]

I've just read the whole set of them and I am shocked at how racist they are - and also I never realised what a blatant christian analogy they are.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Is it acceptable as they are of their time?

The language is also hilarious (eg a Calormene (pretty obvioulsy meant to be Turkish) using the expression 'He's a brick' in praise of someone made me laugh out loud)

Not sure about that Takver, I grew up in an evangelical christian household (and reading all sorts of books) but as an adult I'm an atheist feminist republican leftie. Not like my parents.

Reading overrode parental influence in my case.

You and me both, Fennel . He always seemed more interested in Algy though...

I do agree with you about both Lewis and Pullman both pushing a particular world view. It's part of bringing up discerning readers to expose them to a range of literature that has an opinion and isn't just crowd-pleasing thoughtless pap (although we do read that too ).

Hmm - perhaps I should worry more about DD's reading matter and alarmingly religious schooling - have wondered before if I am just being optimistic and sticking my head in the sand

Algy was Biggles' cousin. I think he preferred Ginger, the luscious young boy.

Did anyone else ever read any Worrals books? I guess that was the concession to girl readers, seem to remember that they were pretty rubbish though.

Was she the Wren? I think I read one but no, it wasn't gripping.

not quite sure that Biggles was actually sexist, I think he only met one woman in his whole life, IIRC. Marie the sexy spy. Apart from that it was men friends and menservants and batmen all the way.

Yes, she was the Wren, but I seem to remember that she spent the book getting rescued by others. And I suppose true that Biggles wasn't sexist as such, but not what you would call a strong female role model.

Interesting question whether you can be sexist if you are effectively unaware of there being another sex than your own.

CS Lewis is similar, I think he never actually knew any women or girls til the end of his life when he married an independent argumentative divorcee. I rather hope she gave him a hard time over his sexist attitudes.

Maybe books like Biggles with no women at all are less of an issue than others of that era - as a girl reader you still identify with whichever of the main characters takes your fancy (definitely saw myself as a bit of a flying ace )

Oh, how I fancied Ginger! And Algy too. Now there's a name for a baby name thread!

I've tried my dd on Biggles - she thinks its slow and boring!

I was a secret service agent . Also rather inspired by John le Carre (I had a crush on Bill in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy too, perhaps that was after the Biggles phase)

oh dear it gets very embarrassing, remembering all my teenage literary crushes. I really should have been out there shagging passing teenage boys, not lusting after all these fictional men).

There was a woman once - Biggles fell very heavily for a French girl - I think she turned out to ba a German spy - can't quite remember, but it put him off women for life.

"Biggles slow and boring!" ejaculated Fennel. "Surely not" expostulated Algy.
"Good grief" opined Bertie, polishing his monacle.

Could have been worse, Fennel, I wasn't even lusting over the fictional men, but imagining myself flying over france, or a little later somewhere out halfway across the galaxy on a spaceship.

And 'slow and boring', what can I say, the youth of today . . .

Eee, Biggles, yon lass says we're right mardy"

Biggles spun on his heel, a lighted cigarette between his lips, staring at Ginger with hazel eyes etched with lines that war had drawn.

"We don't tolerate such talk. Bertie, bring on the Extreme Elocution Teacher" he barked

Bertie's eyes widened

"Right-oh, old man"

"And don't say right-oh!"

We used to go on Physics A level trips round nuclear power stations and jet stations. Me and the 12 boys in my physics class. I found it impossible to concentrate on the science, age 16, as soon as we passed any sort of security check on entry to these buildings, my mind took me straight into my secret service fantasies and I became the reknowned spy (codename Willow Winwallow), investigating the enemy territory.

I didn't learn a thing about physics. Still have no idea what a jet taurus engine (?) is.

Or renowned? whatever...

Two doughnuts meet in a pub. One says "What's your sign?" The other says "I'm a taurus"

In my dd's favour though, she does love Antonia Forest and Anne McCaffery!

boom boom

I think it's the mix that's important, and I also think you have to bear in mind the difference between censoring when you read aloud, which is mostly a matter of leaving out a line or two you feel uncomfortable reading and actively preventing an older child from reading particular books. Which is probably impossible. My kids are not yet at the stage of choosing their chapter books independently so I play a very active role in selection. Ds is still a very reluctant reader at 9, whereas I was a total bookworm, so I'd rather if he reads very little to make sure what he does read is decent stuff (and engaging enough to make him want to read more). I don't encourage him to read older books to himself because the language is often quite difficult which would put him off to. At the moment that mostly means Asterix! dd I like to read books with strong roles for girls as otherwise she would very easily slip into "pink" books which I hate hate hate, and will actively censor for as long as I can (so nur )

Perhaps we need a thread of positive books that we can encourage our children to read? Maybe I'll start one sometime when I'm not supposed to be cooking tea & planting cabbages And no pink.

Note that the ones who call the Calormen darkies are not the heroes- they are the dwarves whose blinkered attitude brings most of them to a sticky end.

And as somebody else mentioned, Aravis is not exactly the little homebody, yet she is shown as a positive example of a woman. And there is no suggestion that she dwindles into a meek little yes-woman on marriage.

I have enjoyed reading the Narnia books with my children and discussing the allegory etc. There are obvious problems with the 1950's attitudes- but that only makes for better discussions IMO.

I also have problems with attitudes in many more contemporary children's writers. The Harry Potter books for instance, though very good in many ways, give in meekly to the assumption that material goods are necessary to self-esteem: Ron Weasley is never pulled up on this one, but allowed to wallow in self-pity from the first volume on, though he is actually perfectly well looked after. His parents go through book after book apologising because he has second-hand robes- my dc's would have to wait a long time for an apology from me! Having the latest broom is seen a necessary part of the hero's happiness. And so on and so forth.

If I banned every author whose ideas I didn't agree with, dc's would not be reading a lot. I think it is better to encourage them to read critically and suck the nectar from different flowers as my medieval monks would say.

I adored the Narnia books as a kid and read and re-read them endlessly. It was only when I re-read them in my 20s that I realised how overtly Christian the message was. It had compltely passed me by as a kid. And, as Cory says, the ones calling the Calormenes 'darkies' are the bad guys. I also read Enid Blyton who in my opinion is blatantly racist (especially in relation to gypsies) and sexist, but I turned out ok!

Don't the children have to be neglected by adults in so many books in order to get the adults out of the way and stop them meddling in the children's adventures? I never thought that was sinister, more of a plot device.