The Narnia books - oh my goodness

[BellaBear]

I've just read the whole set of them and I am shocked at how racist they are - and also I never realised what a blatant christian analogy they are.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Is it acceptable as they are of their time?

The language is also hilarious (eg a Calormene (pretty obvioulsy meant to be Turkish) using the expression 'He's a brick' in praise of someone made me laugh out loud)

Thing is, I think it's worse if it does go over children's heads. That way they get the subliminal messages - particularly the ones about women - but there isn't any opportunity to debate them.

oh yes and think lewis is really upfront about this. Think Aslan says to Lucy in voyage of the dawn treader something about bringing her to narnia so that when she hears him (aslan) called by another name she will understand and love him more

Ok, though I agree about some not too nice subliminal messages, who can think of books written before about 1960 which don't have any undesirable subliminal messages?

I like Tolkein but am not keen on his portrayal of women/girls/female anything. Nor do I like his emphasis on monarchy and patriarchal dynasties, nor his emphasis on war as the way to Further Good in the World. etc. but I would still read him to my dds.

But the purpose of these books is to put across subliminal messages - there are propaganda, pure and simple. Other books from this era have questionable language and so on, but you can talk about it and challenge it. If you challenge the messages of Narnia there's not much left!

well i survived the subliminal messages

the kind of history and geography books i enjoyed reading when i was 8 were a lot worse and i havent grown up with the views expressed therein

great (pre 1960) children's books that celebrate difference, independence and tolerance
EH Nesbit
Noel Steatfeild
Just william stories
Gerald Durrell
Dr Suess

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Interesting.
The racist/sexist overtones completely escaped me when I first read the Narnia books at the age of seven. I remember exhorting my own mum to read them, because I couldn't see how anyone could fail to love such fantastic adventure stories.

I re-read them as an early teen, when my little sisters were reading them, and started to feel uncomfortable with the sexism. The Christian part still escaped me even then!

However, I didn't really think it was that big a deal, mainly because I'd been raised on an almost exclusive diet of Puffin Classics: Tom Brown's Schooldays, A Little Princess, and all that. These were horrendously racist and sexist, so much so that I thought it was most unfair that I was not a boy and therefore could not have adventures, own a Stanley-knife, learn Latin or go to university .

Maybe my mum should have read the books she was giving me, after all.

Just re-read the series and they are good stories. I think the racism element is very much of Lewis's time and his mindset. The problem I have is that the blatant allegory in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe just makes that book really dull for me. I mean, why not show a bit more imagination?

Thw Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair are still very good reads (as is the Magician's Nephew).

do you think you are influenced by the books you read tho?

i have read such a huge variety of books they presumably just counteracxt each other

a lot of the books I read as a child (and enjoyed) have wither been 'edited' for a modern audience or quietly hidden:

Just William (the painted dog was taken out IIRC)
Dr Doolittle
John Buchan
Enid Blyton

in fact, given my childhood reading habits I should be a highly religious, racist, misogynistic housewife with a talent for sewing and making my own cheese. Hmm.

ime people who liked reading narnia books as children are generally people who like reading

and probably mostly women and quite broadminded and lefty liberal

BellaBear - Why did you think 'Calormenes' were obviously meant to be Turkish?

I always thought author of Narnia had a Turkish connection - 'aslan' is the word in Turkish for 'lion', Turkic states like Azerbaijan & Turkmenistan surround 'Caspian Sea', etc.

I don't think CS Lewis is particularly sexist or racist. I'm sure the prevailing views of his time influenced him eg although Susan is a fab archer, she must be protected and not allowed to participate in the battle. And while the Calormenes are generally not portrayed favourably, I never got the impression that this was because they were dark-skinned. I think he just picked upon Middle Eastern culture as being very different from the Narnians, to provide narrative interest. I don't think they're supposed to be Muslims as they're polytheistic.

I also disagree that Susan is excluded from Narnia because of her interest in lipstick and boys. She excludes herself, because her interest in these things replaces her interest in Aslan. I'm pretty sure he's not saying you can't like boys and Aslan.

you all have awfully good memories i couldnt discuss the books in detail because it is about 45 years since i read them

i struggle to remember the details of books i read a few months ago!

and i am totally torn between wanting to read them again and thin king there are so many books i havent read once yet

As I've said before, the difference between these books and the others of the time is that these are INTENDED to prosletyze.

The fact that the Fon of Bafut was represented as a comic character is characteristic of the times in which it was written.

they might have been intending to...but they failed pretty dismally

i think his dark materials had intentions other than being a good read too

I enjoyed Narnia as a child because my big sister read them to me, and I adored my big sister. We were a Christian household so the allegories (which are pretty obvious if you know your Bible stories) weren't a problem. I got uncomfortable reading them again as a teenager, mainly because of the sexism (the girls might occasionally be the "good" ones, but mostly in a way that made me very uncomfortable) but also the racism, which is more about Orientalism (cruel Ali Bab Ba types). I also really really disliked the Last Battle thesis because it completely dismissed other faiths - it's OK, you believed the wrong thing, but as you were good you can come to my heaven anyway. Yuk Yuk. Arrogance or what. So I left them on my bookshelf untouched for a long time. The children wanted them read to them after seeing TLTWTW (which I thought was great first time and then became obviously very thin on rewatching) so I reread and decided that I really didn't want to read them aloud to them as the language is incredibly stilted. They have had them on CD instead. Actually although I think the films are thin, they have updated them quite effectively.

I thin the important thing is to be exposed to lots of different ways of looking at the world as children, and to develop critical thinking early on. So long as your kids can think whilst they read, and they don't have a permanent diet of 50's values they should be fine.

zippi I think that is the understatement of the century

maybe the lesson is that ardent Christians and ardent atheists run the risk of being boring if they let that take over their work...

I loved the Narnia books as a child and have recently re-read them to my boys who also loved them. The stories have really got them using their imaginations and the graden shed is now a portal to Narnia. We've just bought them the bbc version on dvd and is been on constantly for the last few days! I get the Christian message but don't see a problem with it, i've never seen it as trying to brainwash children into Christianity although mine definately have more interested in lions in general.

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By zippitippitoes on Thu 10-Jul-08 13:13:08
ime people who liked reading narnia books as children are generally people who like reading

and probably mostly women and quite broadminded and lefty liberal

Yep that is a pretty good description of me.