Blimey, quite the own goal

[Liverpool52]

Apologies it's a Fail link but I saw this and immediately thought "well you'll have an even more miserable future now because I doubt your daughters will ever talk to you again".

And then I thought, I'm sure using other women's' uteruses to secure your own future was the subject of a book....

What possessed her?!

I'll never be a grandmother because, like so many young women, my twin daughters don't want children - Gen Z are robbing mid-life mothers like me of our future | Daily Mail Online

I’m reminded of a scene in The Archers when Jill Archer was moaning to her husband Phil about Elizabeth and Nigel not having had children yet,and Phil pointed out that she already had five grandchildren from her other 3 children, and Jill said petulantly “but I want ALL my children to have children!”

Unfortunately, you’ve summed it up perfectly @X23. Other people always have unwanted opinions.

What the fuck is all this grandmother obsession these days? I honestly think it's become a trend fuelled by social media. I also think the "grandmother" generation are in a better place than they were years ago, certainly financially. Grandchildren seem to have become the latest accessory and women lose their bloody minds over them. I'm 67 and it really, really was not like this when I was a kid.

I was really not fussed about having grandchildren, but became a grandparent much sooner and younger than I would have expected. I absolutely love it, and think I'm a better grandparent than parent (more time to focus on her when I'm with her and it's not full time). I'm sure I would love any further grandchildren just as much, but I'm not bothered if I do or don't 'get' any. It's not something that's within my control after all.

I agree, but to expand on that a little bit, what I really meant about "selfish" is that I don't think either of them ever stopped to consider the impact of having children on their own lives, and whether or not they were actually suited to being parents. They went ahead and did it at a reasonably young age because that's just what people of that generation did, and I also believe that the dynamic of their relationship blinded them a bit to the reality of each other's flaws, so it would never have occurred to either of them that the other was perhaps a person you shouldn't be having children with.

It's a big part of the reason I have always known I did not want children. I share aspects of both of their personalities, and I'm certain I would be just as much a disinterested, inadequate, selfish parent as they were, and I'm not willing to subject a child to that.

I remember that-I totally agreed with him tbh! It's like people are forgetting all the incredibly painful things about life. It's still kind of taboo to say "I wish I wasn't born" and you'll just be likened to a moody teenager but it's a legitimate position to have surely....it's aprox 80 years of life you had no say in. Some of which will be incredibly hard. I don't like the default position being you have to be forever grateful to have been born. If anything I think parents should be more grateful we're going through life for them.

Couldn't agree more. Most of life is just an absolute slog - school, college, stressful exams, trying to find a job, stressful interviews, then unless you are really lucky, working a mundane job for 40 plus years. Dragging your backside out of bed at the crack of dawn every morning. Dealing with your parents old age, and the upset of their eventual decline and death. Then you eventually get to retire and die yourself. And that's if you don't encounter various additional horrors along the way, like a cancer diagnosis etc. And for any child born now, that's all going to be played out alongside big financial pressures, possibly not being able to afford a home, having to work until age 70 plus.

I don't think it is selfish to want to spare anyone that. I wish I had been spared myself to be honest. I would never have chosen to be born. I would have stayed in my cosy state of non existence. I was perfectly happy like that for thousands upon thousands of years!

@Firefly1987 I don’t disagree that life is hard work, it is! But, given that we’re here, we may as well try to do something positive with it.

None of us know what the future holds and, when we have children, many of us are young enough not to have experienced a lot of the very significant pains life brings your way. As for the ones I had experienced, and they weren't that insignificant, I felt I could do differently for my children and give them a better life. I was young and optimistic when I had them.

As I've come to find out the reality is, we actually can't protect our children from the shit life can throw at us. I've been very supportive of my children when that's happened but I couldn't stop those things happening in the first place.

The other side of that is that they have also experienced a lot of good things that they would have missed if they hadn't been born.

You articulated it all so much better than I could! It must've been SO nice not existing for all those years, I see life as more an imposition than anything. And we're basically trapped here with no way out either. Sucks. Two strangers on this planet had sex and summoned me from my nice peaceful non-existence just so I could have problems. Who wouldn't want to sue them?! 😆

Ridiculous woman.

I never thought I'd ever post this on MN: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benatar%27s_asymmetry_argument

Thank you. I certainly wish my parents hadn't brought me into existence. I am so sick and tired of life, and it's only going to get worse. I am an only child so dread having to deal with my parents decline and eventual death all on my own. Then I will have to sort out my own decline and death. I would be quite happy to slip back into a blissful state of non existence right now. I would NEVER have signed up for life if I had been given the choice.

I agree with you. The thing is, yes there have been good things I'd have missed out on had I not been here, but I wouldn't have known or cared. And the bad things have absolutely outweighed them, and I can't escape from them!

This is basically David Benatar's asymmetry argument.

Anyone else noticed that she was 30 when she had her daughters?

It's quite enlightening that others feel the same - although I am sorry that you do.

When people say to childfree by choice people “ if your parents had felt like you you wouldn’t be here”, the only possible answer is “so what?”.

If my parents hadn’t both decided to go to the same evening class I wouldn’t be here.

If my grandfather hadn’t been stationed in Italy during the war I wouldn’t be here.

Several generations back, if a maid hadn’t run off with the son of the people next door I wouldn’t be here….

And if my parents had had kids but a different sperm had made contact with a different egg I wouldn’t be here either. It’s a ridiculous argument.

Sometimes I see frail old people and think to myself that once upon a time they were somebody's new baby. I hate the trajectory of life - that your health declines until eventually you die. I am terrified of suffering, pain and death. And I have to go through life just to get to that point? I mean what on earth is it all for?

What's the opposing opinion of "I don't want to have children"? Forced birth?

By the way, no-one really decides not to have children because of climate change and so on, in the same way that people who want children don't care about those sorts of factors. They're just things to add to the con list when people chime in with their opposing opinions. The truth is, we just don't want children.

I had a pretty good childhood & life has been good so far overall. I’m perfectly happy. I just have the sense to realise that I’d hate being a parent, so I don’t.

Although I spent a couple of hours at the weekend wrapping presents for all the family kids.

What's the opposing opinion of "I don't want to have children"? Forced birth?

The opposing opinion is the one we hear so often - “deep down, you do want children and you’ll change your mind”.

Hence why poster is going on about climate change and war. She thinks people are forced to say these things as they’re the only things large enough to convince others to believe their delusion that they don’t want kids.

Deeply arrogant - I want kids so everyone audacious enough to not be like me must hear my opposing opinion about their own mind - but very predictable.

David Benatar yes! It'll surprise no one that I'm already quite familiar with his work lol. His asymmetry argument makes perfect sense to me, although I know a lot of people don't get it.

@Strawberriesandpears I remember some of your previous posts now-my heart goes out to you as I know how much you struggle with your situation. I'm in a similar one with a very small family, it sucks! Here if you need to chat x

Thank you @Firefly1987 that is very kind of you. I will send you a message.