If one makes his/her nanny redundant...

[Strix]

How long would he/she have to wait to hire another nanny and not offer the one made redundant the new nanny position?

I am posting this thread on behalf of a friend, so if anyone here knows my nanny please don't alert her to a thread which is actually not about her.

Friend in question has two children but is planning another. So, if she makes this one redundant and hires an au pair, but then needs a full time nanny again in say another 6 or 12 months, will she have to offer the position to the old nanny?

No. If first nanny is genuinely redundant, she should be paid a redundancy payment (assuming she has two years' service) and that's it.

I don't think there's a clear cut answer.

I always thought it was 3 months because I had a friend who was made redundant but got her job back because her employer had hired someone else to do essentially the same job with a different name but it was pointed out to me on a recent thread that there were probably other factors at play there.

In this case I think it depends whether it's the role of childcarer that's actually redundant, whether it's a live out childcarer to live in (in which case you'd need to prove that living in was a job requirement) or whether there's a severe reduction in hours making a full time nanny redundant. In any circumstance it's better to offer the changed job to the nanny and allow them to reject it that make them redundant outright but continue to have childcare.

Are you sure? I thought there was a rule that said something like if you make your nanny (or presumably any employeee) redundant you cannot then hire another person to do the same job within x months/years without first offering the position to the original nanny (employee) first.

But I can't remember what x is. Or maybe I'm wrong about the whole thing and that is why I couldn't find the answer via my friend google.

The situation is that friend would let live-in nanny go, hire an au pair, let au pair go at point of maternity leave. And then after maternity leave there would be a live-in nanny job again.

Au pairs's duties would differ somewhat from nanny duties, but not hugely.

Well that's what I always thought it was, until someone (I think flowery) told me otherwise.

In your friend's situation the hours/duties thing would be a sticking point as it was with my friend. She was a personal secretary, went on ML, got made redundant then the company hired an executive assistant with the same job description, hours and pay 2 months later. She took them to a tribunal and won. The nanny/au pair situation would, I feel, be very similar. To make nanny redundant you'd need to prove the job had changed substantially - so much so it wouldn't be suitable/they'd have no interest in it. From what you've said it sounds like the job isn't changing (just the pay?!). I am extrapolating though, so am willing to be corrected.

The issue is it's not a genuine redundancy - there's still a need for a live-in childcarer.

But, 2 months sounds like a very short time. Is it possible your friend was successful because it was within some time limit?

I'm sure there would be overlap. I'm just assuming that there are things one might ask an au pair to do which would probably not be appropriate for a nanny - say the whole families laundry.

But, from what you are saying it sounds like current nanny should just be offered the job of au pair... including the change of job title from nanny to au pair.

But, I'm still a bit confused because I don't believe that a nanny and an au pair are the same thing. I'm having trouble accepting this.

Strix
All I can say is good luck to the Au-Pair does she know her job will come with nanny duties sacked when the baby is born and family searches for a nanny, obviously you are worried about your position lets face it thats the biggest give away Im doing this for a friend I bet I get kicked off this site for saying this but I would look for alternative employment with a family that wants and truly values your services being a stand in mummy for someone elses children is a very hard job I wish you luck in your search for a new family its obviouse they do not value the work you put in to their children shame on the parents if they can pull the rug from under you Good Luck.

That post is not only rude, but well and truly off the mark.

I like my nanny. She is tidy, and does most everything I ask her to do in about half the time I expect her to do it. She is punctual. The kids love her. I could go on.

In fact, my two children are already in full time school and yet she is still here. Whilst I would love to reduce my childcare costs, I do sometimes have to travel for work and I feel that overnights for two or three nights in a row which could be every week for an extended period of time is too much for an au pair. So I have accepted my fate as a nanny employer for the foreseeable future.

Your post could be very damaging if my nanny (or one of her friends) were to read it and believe it to be true. If you must cause trouble, please do so elsewhere.

Strix - found this which may be of help: Redundancy Forum: How long after we have made redundancies do we have to wait before we can recruit again?

Seems as though the 3 month period is due to that being the length of time an employee has following termination to bring a claim for unfair dismissal.

Also, found a message thread when Flowerybeanbag answered a similar question - How long before your job can be re-advertised?

With regard to role of nanny and role of aupair, if the aupair job was to come about within the 3 month period, I feel they are too similar in job role for it not to be offered to the nanny.

I'm just assuming that there are things one might ask an au pair to do which would probably not be appropriate for a nanny - say the whole families laundry.

Possibly though as a nanny I do whatever laundry is to be done... while I put priority on the children's clothes, I add parents clothes to make a full load.

I don't think there will be enough differences between the roles.

Morally I also feel it's right to offer the job, even though the nanny may well turn it down as the responsibilities and pay would be different.

Strix I didnt post my last message at your nanny or mean it to be obtrusive but cant your friend do her own I want to know what the rules are of employment are, with respect as an EX-Nanny myself and well travelled as far afield as new york, Caymen Islands, canada, France and Spain I think I am well conversed in what the parents think and do I left every position by my own accord with excellent references I am not calling you or the employment of your nanny I am sure you respect her in all she does for you and your family but lets be fair there are people out there who do not respect the work a nanny contributes to a household surely you must agree to that I am not here to cause trouble or dischord just sometimes a valued opinion is worth a read not all nannies should be treated with blinkers. Maybe some of them may find themselves in a tricky situation as you have mentioned and appreciate my interjection, comments but not directly at you hope I didnt hit a raw nerve. Every nanny deserves respect they do take the roll of mum and dad some girls are too young to be mums themselves but they do an excellent job bringing up other peoples children I am sure you will appreciate that bearing in mind YOU Value your nanny you are a rare parent best intentions meant.

I had this situation at my office and was assured by HR that there is no legal min requirement of X months that you have to wait until you can re-recruit. People often quote 3 months but I was told that's because of the 3m time limit for bringing a claim of unfair dismissal. If your reasons for redundancy is genuine at the time then you don't have to offer the job to ex nanny.

I would have thought JD and expectations of aupair and nanny are hugely different.

the roles may be similar but one is live in and the other live out.

one is solely childcare while the other will be more varied.

one is a highly paid, professional role and the other is very definitely not

If the need for a full time nanny has ceased then that role is redundant. if there is then a need for someone to help out, then a new, distinct role exists and I don't see why the nanny would have to be offered it.

The original q was around whether the original nanny would have top be offered the new full time nanny position in 6-12 months. No - sufficiant time will hve elapsed

When you said "obviously you are worried about your position lets face it thats the biggest give away Im doing this for a friend " I took that to mean that you were saying I was actually typing about my own nanny -- whose job is not in question. I went out of my way in the OP to make that clear so the grapevine wouldn't make it's way to my nanny because I don't want her to think I'm about to terminate her job. I AM NOT.

And, yes, your post made me quite considering the potential consequences of some well meaning frined of my nanny's possibly pick up the phone and saying "I think you better check out mumsnet because I think you are about to find yourself in the unemployment line". So, please consider the consequences (and the facts) when you make such (false) accusations.

Sorry, greybird and gladders, crossed with both of you.

Greybird, yes that's what I thought. Two totally different roles. SOrt of like asking the CFO if she'd like the junior accountant part time role.

Gladers, oh the original question. Thank you for comming back to it.

Incidentally, I don't actually know whether or not friend would be happy to offer au pair role to nanny. I am just assuming I guess that no nanny would be interested in such a demotion.

This all came up just because I was chatting with her about nannies/au pairs and I said there was a time limit under which she would have to offer new nanny role to old nanny and was she happy to do that. And then I took it up on myself to wander over to Mn and ask.. thinking foolishly that it was a simple answer and MN of course knows all.

Anyway, I think I'll just point her to this thread and let her read for herself and choose her own appropriate course of action.

If only there was a simple answer to everything

Excuse me for being forward but if you dont want your nanny to think she is going to get the push I wouldnt of even opend a forum, it is you that this will cause dischord with your nanny because it doesnt matter what you tell her now, you should of informed her that you where looking to open a forum for a friend on here.
I am sorry if there is potential consequences on here but this is the internet and what happend to the freedom of speach, constructive argument if you dont want your nanny or your friends nanny to know what you are doing you shouldnt be on here posting it for all the world to see expect some critisisim at the very least I would be hopeful that some nannies do read this and get some insight into just what your friend can be like she is getting you to do her dirty work while all the time dirtying your name have you thought about that and you dont even want to lose your nanny but your friend is really putting you in a position isnt she ???? it should be her on here asking the questions, not you surely you must agree........

I think it will be fine now. As I have typed several posts explaining this thread is not about my nanny. But, I still think you would be wise to get some evidence before you go weilding accusations.

My friend didn't put me on the spot because she doesnn't even know yet that this thread exists, and didn't ask me to start it.

But she will soon....

I didnt weild accusations I dont even know you it is just what I read earlier the net like text messages can be very misleading if read not properly can cause confusion this is the internet, girl, nobody knows anything about who is tapping away on the otherside of the keyboard especially in forums like this, but everyone has access it is like having a party in your fron garden everyone can watch pleased you will have been able to put your very valued nanny strait I am very sure she is valued to you and your family. and let your friend know I am sure you had best intentions for her to help but at the end of the day it is for her to deal with not you, you have a treasured nanny to keep hold of .......... wish you well hope you dont think me a bad person I would of just enjoyed a construtive conversation thats all I wish you well.......

Oh Imamum2 would you just belt up.

what do you mean belt up it isnt me with the nanny crisis airing my washing for all the net to see you belt up .............. you dont even know me

EvaBrick thats your problem living in a bubble some people just dont like the truth

Imamum2, if you're going to contribute to the discussion, it would make life much easier if you would put some punctuation and capital letters in your posts. your sentences are all just running into each other.

Nobody has a nanny "crisis" (as far as I know).

I can do that for you, if you would like. ern if you read back I can punctate very well thankyou.
But given the circumstances I dont think it is really fair to enter into a discussion on " how to sack my nanny fairly " do you? as Strix said quote " I'm not refering to my nanny in these blogs " she was relating for a friend. You know some people just have no idea, is that good enough for you ?????

Strix nobody has a nanny crisis plenty of people do Google it........