Childminders and Sick pay

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Hi

I have a really good childminder who now wants me to pay her sick pay.

Does anyone else pay sick pay. As she is self employed I thought we didn't pay this.

Any advice would be great!

I have come across one or two cases but it is certainly not common practice in my personal experience although the term self-employed does certainly not preclude someone from building sick-pay into their Ts & Cs. I would suggest at least that within a contract, there should be a maximum number of "sick days" that the minder can claim for.

are you in a position to be flexible. i have only wrk 4 days a week so when i have had to have the odd day off i have taken the child the friday (which i dont usually wrk) and that makes up the hours or i have offered to start a little earlier or wrk a little later to make up for it as i simply cant afford just to refund.
i now when working out my fees i deduct 5 weeks holidays and 1 week sick leave (incase needed)and then charge the parent 46 weeks but divide it over the 52 weeks. sometime i will never take the sick leave so the parents have gained but i would expect give and take if say i then needed more than 1 week one year and hadnt used any the year before

Some CM's do charge. Personally I think it's a bit cheeky, especially when the parents might have to pay someone else for cover. I would never charge for sick days.

My cm does not charge because she knows I will need to pay someone else to cover for her. I like xoxcherylxox's plan.

Out of curiosity, do cm's usually have a "backup" cm they can recommend for you (like one that goes to a similar playgroup) in case of her illness? or do most parents have their own back up? I have my own back up plan but it's not very reliable.

What does your contract say? If sick pay isn't mentioned in the contract then she can't start charging it out of the blue, but if you signed up to pay sick pay then you have to.

My cm charges for 10 sick days a year. Yes I resent it, deeply, but that's the contract I signed. She also charges if I choose not to send my children when her own are ill, as 'she's available', but what am I supposed to do - send my children into a house with vomiting bugs? But hey ho, we won't be with her after Sept anyway

Thanks for your reply.

I have just got off the phone with HMRC after speaking to numerous agencies and basically they are not allowed with charge for sick pay as they are self employed.

If you pay sick pay then you are agreeing apparently to being there employer as sick pay is a benefit it is not a right. Basically they are breaking the law is what I was told.

I have asked them to put this in writing to I can show it to my CM. If you are paying sick pay I suggest you do the same.

Will keep you informed when I get a letter from them.

Does your contract mention sick pay? I'm suprised self-employed people can't negotiate any terms they want.

HI
I have been a cm for over 10 years i dont charge for sick days and dont know any other cm who does. Touch wood i have never had any time off sick as i need the money to pay my bills i do not have any other source of income. Maybe if i had a sick pay agreement i would of taken some time off, I remember feeling awful with a kidney infection once and took no time off, I explained to the parents that i would not be taking the kids out as it hurt to walk and i wouldn't be doing much with them but watching them play keeping them warm feed etc, thinking one of the parents would take pity on me and say that they wouldn't bring the child that day but none of them did. i got through it and i think it shows that by parents really need us not to take time off sick, i mean how many peoples work is going to allow the person time off when they are ill, then when the child is in and then again when the cm is ill? as for when my kids are ill i leave it up to the parents i always inform them of what is wrong with them and come to some sort of an agreement maybe if they do end up taking a day off to have their own child and paying me i have the child an extra couple of hours a day until they have made up the time at work.
All in all i would say phone around other cm in the area and ask if they charge sick pay if its the norm in your area then thats that but if its not I would discuss it with her, maybe you need to ask around to see how many days she has taken off sick in the last couple of years.
Hope it helps

HMRC may be right re sick pay as self employed people cannot claim SSP as its classed as a benefit of employed people so it makes sense that they cannot be paid sick pay by a client.

I wonder if holiday pay is the same though as most childminders also charge that?

I interviewed a raft of Childminders for my LO and asked them to clarify ALL of their terms as I had heard about so many variations. About half of them that I visited charged for sick pay.

The one I use does not charge for sick pay or her holidays and my child is the only one she takes (so kind of like a nanny but in her own home).

my t&c are if im unwell no charge if my own dc are ill to inform and let them decide if mindees are ill depending on illness ie sickness anything extreamly cont, high temp i wont take but will charge as i am avialable to work 4 weeks hol a yr i take unpaid but bhols i am paid for but i know due to going to playgroups with many cms we are all dif in this area

She may not be asking for Statutory Sick Pay, but you may have a clause in your contract that says you agree to pay her when she is off sick. Check your contract. I am a CM and I only get paid when I am available.

No she wants me to pay her sick pay on top of SSP when she is sick.

It is a standard NACM contract with this extra, however on the back they have written about not paying sick pay.

Anyway HMRC said I would be classified as an employer if I agreed so I could end up paying mat pay in the future if I was staying with her.

Are you sure HMRC didn't just mean she can't get SSP as she is self employed, rather than any agreement about sick pay between the two of you?

That's what I meant Missus - you are not her employer, so would not pay her SSP, however you may have agreed on your contract to pay her when she is off sick. They are two separate things.

HMRC said if I pay her sick pay (which is a benefit of employment) then I become her employer and would need to sign up for employer NI

However I have asked for this to be sent to me as written evidence.

As you are probably aware dealing with government departments all depends on who you speak to.

I hope this clarifies it better.

I am also trying to find out a bit more from ACAS re employment law.

I would have thought that a childminder can charge what she wants really, whether it's holiday or time she's closed due to sickness - just like some nurseries still charge for days they shut for staff training.

If you agreed to sick pay when you signed the contract with her, trying to back out now may damage your relationship with her.

I'm really tempted to start charging parents who will insist on sending their ill child, pretending that nothing has been wrong with the child and then either myself or my kids come down with it - meaning I have to close......(and lose my income......)

My experience of two (wonderful) CMs over the past 3+ years is as follows:

If the CM is available to care for my children then I pay even if I opt (for any reason) not to send one/both.

This has happened if one/both is ill, has been ill with anything contagious (and would also include D+V but neither has ever had it!) Is also the case if either I or DP has a day off work and opts to keep children home to play!

If CM is not available due to either her own sickness or that of her DC then I do not pay. In this situation DP has to take emergency leave to cover as we have no other option. (I am a teacher and emergency leave is very hard to get!)

Regarding holidays - CM closes for 5 or 6 weeks a year and does not charge for these times as she is unavailable to care for my children.

When I take holidays (for 13 weeks a year as my DDs do not go at all during school holidays) I pay a 50% retainer to hold my place for after the holidays.

I do not object to paying the 50% retainer but I would think VERY hard about paying someone when they were not available to care for my children thus requiring me to find alternative emergency care.

These have been the contract details with both my CMs and they have both been marvellous (and current one still is!) However, we knew the t&c's going into the contracts so I would think, had you agreed to pay then you either need to pay or to re-negotiate the contract.

I would not be able, personally, to leave my DDs with someone I resented paying - we pay a huge whack of my salary as it is and feel we get our money's worth and more.

Dysgu, this had been the prior arrangement but she now wants to change it. I had suggested that she increase her hrly rate to cover sick leave if she does go off instead. That way I am not actually paying "sick pay" but she is covered financially if she is sick.

However, a friend has pointed put to me as she is a self-employed contract worker if she is sick, no pay.

I currently have my DD in a nursery as the CM is on holiday for 4 months, and think I will reassess it closer to when CM returns. I have also discovered if I or my DP take time of of my child being sick (or childcare not being able to provide care) we don't get paid.

"HMRC said if I pay her sick pay (which is a benefit of employment) then I become her employer"

HMRC must have that wrong, as there are many more factors at play which determine Employment Status - as we have previously established when talking about if Nannies can be self employed. HMRC are surely not saying that it's just about if someone is paid some form of sick pay which determines employment status.

Maybe you had phrased it wrongly to HMRC. To me it's charging for a service which isn't available. I.e. a charge is made by the Childminder when the Childminder is unable to care for your child (or hold your child's place open).

Ultimately I feel that parents sign a contract. If it is felt that the contract is unfair, then they should try to renegotiate it's terms and if an agreement can not be reached then terminate the contract under the termination terms.

your CM is on holiday for 4 months!

The bitchy bit of me thinks that if she can afford a 4 month holiday, without pay (I'm presuming that you are not paying) then its a bit cheeky to ask for sick pay. But then I'm probably just .

I'm also finkin that your DD is going to get mighty confused, 4months is a long time to be away from the minder, she will be settled in nursery by then. Frankly if any of your CM's parents can manage without her for 4 months then they don't really need childcare and if they are struggling then its not a great service that she is offering.

I also agree with DYSGU you sound very resentful - and I would be too - do you really think that you can continue a working relationship when she returns?. Also have you contacted NCMA for clarification they are very helpful and although a minder org their advice is non-biased.

The law regarding employment status is quite obscure, a tribunal will look at many factors to determine whether in their opinion someone is employed or self employed. Some of the things they look for are:

Who dictates the working time / days / holidays.

Does the person have one client or several.

Is the person bound by specific requirements (ie, do you require a uniform to be worn etc)

Who provides equipment / materials for the employment to be carried out.

Childminders also have special concessions with HMRC, as some only do care for mindees from one family, in this instance they would still retain their S/Emp status.