Childminders and Sick pay

[popem]

Hi

I have a really good childminder who now wants me to pay her sick pay.

Does anyone else pay sick pay. As she is self employed I thought we didn't pay this.

Any advice would be great!

Your CM is on holiday for 4 months! Hmm, why would you go back to them? Your DD will be settled in nursery by that time... So do look at if returning to the CM makes sense.

Nannynick, I am currently negotiating a contract, I am also getting in contact with ACAS to find out more about employment law, as I mentioned it all depends on who you talk to and their. interpretation.

I have contacted NCMA, the local child service at the council and citizens advice. CA was the most useful with giving me ACAS numbers to get in contact with.

I think she is a great childminder, I guess I am looking at it from my view point. I know its hard to loose a days pay for her, but I also loose a days pay if she is sick and have to pay her sick pay. My biggest worry is that I will be viewed as her employer (if she gets pregnant then I will also have to pay maternity pay). I asked for a limit of days to be added to the contract which she didn't want to, she wants it to be left open. This is the bit I'm not happy with. But all she says is she cant afford to not get paid if she is sick. I also cant afford to not get paid when she is sick either.

Atworknotworking, I think you make a good point about confusing my DD, she is so easy going and very adaptable but will be getting to age that she will be confused she CM returns.

You don't have to pay her when she is off sick unless you have agreed to in your contract. If she is trying to change the contract, then don't agree to it. If you have agreed in her contract, then you should not really question it. If you have agreed to pay her for time when she is not available (regardless of whether it is sickness, or holidays), then you should. This will not mean you have employed her.

I agree 4 months off is a long time and you should think about what childcare you need in future and certainly what contract terms to are prepared to agree to.

I am not trying to criticise you, just trying to clarify what is in the contract and what you might want in future. If the contract does not specifically say you pay when she is not available, then don't pay.

check the contract, if you signed and it says you pay, then you pay, if not then not..

simple.. but a good reminder, always read line by line what you sign...

I wouldn't agree to sick pay, it is too much of a risk to you.

Your childminder is self employed, she should work out her rates to reflect that, ie when setting her rates she should have looked at income and expenses and factored in some time off for sickness.

My childminder went off sick last year for nearly two months after returning from a 3.5 week holiday and then demanded two weeks holiday when she should have returned to work as she "hadn't used her entitlement".

It was a long drawn out row to get the money back for her sick leave and to make her uderstand why it wasn't possible for us to accept this.

There was no provision for sick leave in her contract, she has since given us a new one stating that she will be paid for any time off sick. We haven't signed and are looking actively for a new childminder.
We have no holiday left though as we had to cover a lot of her time off.

We know now that she wasn't ill for a lot of the time she was off.

Agreeing to uncapped sick leave puts you in a risky position in my opinion.
It was hard enough for us without a contractual requirement to pay sick leave.

Thebody, the contract does not currently say I pay sick pay. When she was off we didn't pay. Now when she comes back from holiday she wants a new contract thats has sick pay in it.

itsmeitsmeolors, what you are going through is what I can see happening. I think if I cam happy with the nursery I will keep DD there.

A number of years ago our CM asked for sick pay (and holiday pay) instead of a payrise. This was completely fine by us as we would happily have agreed to a payrise and averaged across the year these two options cost us approx the same.

I think you are slightly missing the point about getting tied up with the legalities of it all - either you are happy to pay her a bit more (on average across the year) or you are not. Your choice.

If finances are tight and you don't want to agree to this then just say to her that you can't cope with the potential of having to pay two sets of childcare costs if she is ill. IMO this is a far more honest and helpful response than to bombard her with technical evidence about why you are not allowed to.

I think what chiodminders often forget when asking for sick pay is that those of us who are employed don't get sick pay anyway for the first 3 days and even after that is is a paltry small amoutn not related to our usual wage.

but no, to my mind a self employed person should not charge for when their service is unavailable and I woulc not enter into a contract with any one or organisation that expected that.

Dh is self employed he has taken out insurance to cover long term sickness but during some recent bad bouts of tonsillitus he just had to cope.

I agree with muddleduck. Just tell her that you can't cope with paying her and someone else if she isn't available. And that you can't pay when you don't send your DD.

Also, I'd keep her in the nursery. 4 months is a long time! Are you paying her for any of that holiday? I hope not.

It's quite bold and quite frankly, grabby, of her to ask you to pay for days when she's not offering a service.
We're having difficulties with our broadband at the moment and the company is refunding our account for the amount of time we have been without it. Simple. You don't pay for a service you're not getting. Especially when it means you have to pay someone else to cover.

Sorry - to clarify. I meant that you can't pay when you don't send your DD because of her own sickness or holidays (not to include your own dd's sickness and your own holidays).

I think if a parent sent in a sick child when they should not have (48hrs exclusion ignored) and then that CM had to close, then the parent should still pay.
Otherwise, NO, CMs should not be charging for sick pay.

love PIPPINS post, how many times have cms had a child foisted on them with the words,'they have been a bit off but seem fine now' further investigations reveal child has been up sick all night,has a temp or a really bad cold...

then you and your own dcs catch it and you dont have time off because you cant afford it as you arnt paid sick pay.. unlike most parents....

however like most cms I dont charge for my sick days or holidays...

Why would someone send their dc when they are obviously ill and probably just want to be at home with mummy/daddy?

I suppose its not wanting to take time off because of child care issues isnt it. but I can assure you it happens all the time..

This is what I save my emergency and very limited "sick days" for... when ds is ill. I don't even stay home when I'm ill. I have only 10 for the year and need to only use them for when he needs to be home. Hence, why they can't be wasted on when my cm is sick and I use a back-up, who I pay instead of the cm for that day.

Ok so I've had a look at the T&C's on the NCMA contract,

section 17 states "Registered Childminder sickness / occasional days off - charges No fee or any other amount is payable for, or in respect of, any time that the contracted service is not available, other than times negotiated under note 18."

Note 18 refers solely to time taken off for holidays - Not Sickness -

So if I were you I would point out this clause, I see you have already noticed it and tell her plainly that if she writes sick pay details into the contract it would be in violation of NCMA T&C's, therefore unenforcable anyway, (IMO, but I'm probably right I reckon no doubt someone a lot cleverer will come along and confirm)

One of many reasons why I find NCMA contracts try to be a "one size fits all" but fail.

I strongly believe that childminders should draw up their own contracts to suit their setting and business offering. I do not know where one stands with amendments to NCMA contracts but presumably like normal contract laws, if the amendment is approved and signed by both sides then it can be varied as much as both sides are willing to agree and is therefore enforceable. Having found some years ago that I was needing to make more than just one or two amendments to NCMA contracts, I turned to writing my own.

However, you cannot be expected to sign a new contract just because the minder wants to force through a change - a contract should be looked upon as a mutual agreement - if you do not like what she wants to amend, she will presumably serve notice (unless you get in there first!) so you will only have the notice period (of whatever is in your contract), to endure this situation.

I agree with Millenium re: the one size fits all contract, doesnt always work as individuals requirements are unique.

NCMA members however have to use NCMA contracts to validate cover and membership. I take the point that if both sides alter the agreement and both choose to sign it then for them it is valid and enforceable, but I still feel that if a clause is added (written in) that contravenes the T&C's on the contract that NCMA have stipulated that it's members follow, the minder will have issues should their be a dispute and NCMA / Insurers may turn around and say that the contract was not completed properly, therfore we won't help / cover in this instance.

popem have you contacted NCMA and asked them about the changes your CM wants to make?

Just to clarify:

The NCMA contract does not need to be used in all cases. Membership and insurance cover is not invalidated in the event of a non-NCMA contract.

Where there is an exception is on the Legal Representation where the use of a non-NCMA contract means that they cannot support you in the event of a contract dispute in excess of £150 - all other areas of Legal Representation are provided. So they will support you in a claim of less than £150 and in the event that it is more, then the Small Claims Court is available.

Thanks for clarifying that, I was under the impression (that I got from an NCMA person) that if you were a member you had to use the contracts.

But thats useful info, cos quite frankly they are expensive and a bit pants, I think I will look into doing my own instead.