Time to go from nanny to au pair?

[NewNameOldTopic]

I have name changed as I believe nanny may read this website and wouldn't want her to read this here. Basically I am pondering when and if to reduce my childcare costs by dropping from a live-in nanny to an au pair. I like our nanny, but I can't rally justify the cost if an au pair would be much cheaper.

So, what would an au pair in the home counties cost me for the following:

2 hours in the morning to include getting the kids fed, dressed, and off to school (all children are in full time school).

3 hours beginning at school pick up to take them to activities, feed them, do some homework, get them ready for bed. and finish at 6:15.

Same schedule every day (Mon. - Fri.). The activity schedule changes, but au pairs hours would remain the same.

On rare occassions I have to travel for work and she would look after them all night (for a separate prenegotiated set fee).

She would get:
Greater London bus travel
Gym membership
mobile phone

I would not pay for English classes, but I would pay for a first aid course if she had not already taken one in the UK.

I think it will depend on whether you are happy using unqualified child care for your DC or not.
So if your DC are still very young, you might not want to leave them with a young unqualified person.

We are using our first AP at the moment with a schedule even easier than yours. Our DC are 6 and 10 so it is fairly easy and I am happy with her experience and resonsibiltiy, also she is 25 so a bit older than most.

I find it really flexible, and I am sure it would be a lot cheaper than a live-in nanny.

The pocket money cost will be between 65 and 85 pounds a week. IME this is then doubled by food, bills etc but if your nanny is live-in you'll be used to that.
The other hidden cost is in the amount of time you need to invest into training and supporting an au pair, sorting out doctor appointments, picking them up from friends houses and the other myriad of little things that you don't have to worry about with a nanny. Oh and also the almost non-stop recruiting. our aps have stayed between 5 and 9 months so it feels like we're always searching for the next one.

As your nanny is live in you'll need to be careful about letting her go. It can be done as long as you change the hours/wage to what the new au pair would have and offer it to her first (providing she refuses, otherwise you have a bargainous nanny). You can't make her officially redundant as you will still have a vacancy for a live in childcarer.

That's a fairly full schedule but plenty of room for langauge classes so not unattractive. I would offer it at £75 a week, negotiable upwards for stunning candidates.

What would you do about holidays? What will you do when children are sick? Will your AP be able to cope with the children's homework? How long a commitment will you want from your AP? Are you okay with all the 'parenting' that some APs need? Have you factored in the nursery duties your nanny currently does that don't seem to be on the APs schedule?

How old are your children? As in are they old enough to be left overnight with an AP (depending on AP's experience)? Do you have a backup in case they're not competent enough/suddenly let you down?

Not necessarily to be answered here as some of them would probably out you but things to consider.

I would be happy to offer the reduced hours job to current nanny, but I don't think she will want it. So, there is not really an issue there. I suppose the trick will be finding someone who wants to work as an au pair but who is also responsible enough to be left with occassional overnight care.

And I need to consider what I would do if one of the children was sick and could not go to school whilst I was away.

It sounds like a straight forward au pair role so you should find plenty of willing people for £65 or £70 a week.

My au pairs have regularly stayed with the children overnight. They are older so I have less worries now I'm sure but have never found it a problem. It has always been part of the agreement - we have never had more than 1 evening baby-sitting per week tops probably once a fortnight, so the occasional overnight was just part of the deal.

We've never had family by us while the kids have been growing up so I just networked with other Mums at the school gates and had a list of numbers I could call on if the au pair needed some help. Most of our au pairs have easily been able to cope with sick kids on a day off.

If you are choosing the right person in the first place and establish a good cooperative relationship with each other there is no reason why your au pairs won't stay for at least one year or longer.

"You can't make her officially redundant as you will still have a vacancy for a live in childcarer."

erm... I don't think this is true.

But, as I said before I would be happy to keep her on with reduced hours and corresponding pay. But, I think it is unlikely she will want to.

How does redundancy work if I change the hours but not so much the duties. The duties will change, but not hugely so.

As far as I understand it you have essentially the same job, but need fewer hours, with the same duties? So it's the full time position which is redundant not the job itself. That's what I was trying to get across.

If the job simply didn't exist anymore you could say 'you're now redundant', hand over anything she's entitled to and that would be that. As it is you plan to reduce the hours, which is often used as an alternative to redundancy where the possibility exists.

When you make someone redundant as an employer you have a duty to offer them any alternative job which exists. If you were changing to a childminder or nursery there is no alternative job, if you changed to a live oit nanny there would be so you should offer it and as you're looking for a live in part-time childcarer (aka an au pair) there is but you plan to offer it anyway. I think part of the problem is the blurring between au pairs and live in nannies given that anyone can be a nanny if they like (legally), most au pairs can work as anything in this country anyway and the difference in care for school aged children is often entirely academic and only used to calculate pay because in the eyes of the law (unless said au pair is Romanian or Bulgarian) they're the same thing - a live in childcarer who works on a part-time basis. It doesn't take into account the linguistic/cultural exchange aspect.

You don't need to worry about redundancy pay unless current nanny has been with you more than 2 consecutive years the day you make her redundant.

I see your point, but as you say it doesn't really matter because I would be happy to have her stay.

But interesting point because I would obviously pay an au pair a lower rate than I would pay a nanny... or perhaps I am wrong on this point. Do au pairs make a lower hourly rate or is it just less money in proportion to the fewer hours?

What do people do in the school hols, then? Does the au pair work full time then (for more money obviously)? Or do you sign the kids up for holiday clubs and leave the au pair on her usual hours?

Depends on the hours and the nanny/au pair.

If we said an inexperienced, unqualified, live in nanny on her first job doing 11 hour days (fairly standard for live in) could expect 200 for a 5 day week she's making 40 a day, just under 4 an hour. If she does 12 hour days that's even less per hour and she's unlikely to get a free travelcard, gym membership and a mobile for use at all times. She might get a travelcard if the job required it, ditto gym membership, and a mobile if she didn't have one already.

If we took an au pair job that paid around 75 a week she's making 15 a day, around 3 an hour for 5 hours work.

Not that much of a difference really.

What people do in holidays varies IME depending on family, children's ages/interests and the capability of the au pair. I wouldn't rely on one - although some people do - and I don't think it's that fair for au pair or children to expect them to cover long holidays with no support. That said an au pair can easily do a week here and there and ferry children to/from activities and so on the rest of the time. I just think a month or so with a possibly quite uninspired person who doesn't know the country, may not speak the language brilliantly and doesn't have much experience of children is a bit much! You may be lucky and have a fab one. But fab at the daily school routine does not mean fab at amusing children for full days at a time. Most run out of steam after a week and need a lot of managing/suggestions.

Totally down to the au pair and number/age of children.

In school hols it depends on the ap. If they are confident with the kids and happy to take them places we pay for them to cover more hours, if they are not so good we use holiday club and ap does normal hours. Most often it's a compromise with kids doing sports clubs for half the day and with au pair in the pm.

The difference is still one that causes disagreement on this message board.

A nanny is an employee and covered under employment law. An au pair living with a host family is considered to be participating in a cultural exchange and is not considered employment.

'Au Pairs' that have gone beyond the au pair programme rules (i.e. working 35 or 40 hours per week or mainly doing house work) are not really au pairs, and as frakkinaround says are probably better described as live-in child carers or live-in domestic workers.
Some families have used standard employment contracts to cater for these 'au pairs' that have gone beyond the definition of au pair status.

What seems to happen on this board is some posters have adopted these employment practices for 'normal' au pairs as well (which is fine if they want to do this) but recommend this as the correct thing to do (which is unfounded).

i TOTALLy agree with treeesa!

An au-pair is someone who is in a different country to gain a cultural experience
In exchange for board, food, language classes, and the opportunity to see/experience the country they give (for uk) UP TO 25 hours a week.

I have been an au-pair in a different country and went for the language. I worked 7am-1pm, 3 days a week, and 9am-12, 2 days. with one evening babysitting. this gave me the afternoons/evenings for language classes and to see what the country was like.
I also did proxy parenting sometimes for a week at a time but this was set at a different rate on top. I stayed 15 months.
I believe if you treat your au-pair according to the au-pair 'rules' you will have no problem with them staying for the length of time you want. i met literally hundreds of au-pairs whilst working and all those that were treated fairly stuck to their contract, everyone else... well stories could fill a trilogy!
also @ paying a live-in first time nanny £200!!!! i do think thats extremely low

in response to the question:
i think you can definitely move onto an au-pair when you feel ready. maybe have a hunt on au-pair world and just see who is around who might fit your needs

sorry its soooo long!
( as a full time nanny now i just feel au-pairs should not be taken for granted)

ps.. i am still in touch with the family i au-paired for and am now the child's godparent

Oh dear.

Unfortunately the European Court of Justice does not agree with Tereeesa.

Can we knock this on the head once and for all?

The judgement in the Payir case in January 2008 held that au pairs are entitled to the same rights as any other worker.

In this case (paraphrasing from here), the UK authorities argued that certain au pairs should not be given rights to work in the UK for more than one year as they are only permitted to work to achieve a social objective. The ECJ rejected this argument. It held that just because there is a social element to the intention of the Immigration Rules that does not take away the lawful character of the activity as work, and therefore an au pair has all the rights of any other worker.

I am quite happy to put the au pair onto payroll as I have done with the nanny. Is there threshold under which I don't have to bother with the paye? (and could therefore skip the nannytax.co.uk fee)

Oh, and I think I would look for someone with some live in and somce childcare experience. So probably more of an au pair plus... maybe a student who wanted her days free to go to class. Hence, I'm not really looking for the 17 - 18 year old foreign girl who has never practised her textbook English. She would have to be able to relay message to / from parents and teachers at the school gate.

If you never pay more than £94.99 in any week you do not need to operate PAYE.

£96.99 per week from 6th April 2010

Oh dear too

Where does it say - quoting mranchovy "and therefore an au pair has all the rights of any other worker".

mranchovy - Please provide a link to where it states the above that you claim?

The court case did NOT hold that au pairs are entitled to the same rights as any other worker. It ruled that a Turkish worker could fully rely on the rights that article 6(1) of decision No 1/80 gave her.

I have been sent this..

Decision 1/80 was made in 1980, by the association council appointed by the European Community Association Agreement, in order to improve links between Turkey and the European Union. The decision allowed a Turkish worker, after 12 months to extend his stay and hence permission to work for the SAME employer - if a job was available. After 3 years the worker could apply for a job with any employer (in the SAME occupation) and finally after 4 years be able to apply for any job of his choice in ANY occupation.

The court ruling that you emailed the link for, held that a Turkish au pair could apply for leave to remain in the UK, based on the fact that her family still had the same job available for her, and because her work as an au pair satisfied the conditions of the 1980 agreement, the rights of that agreeent/decision were upheld. The rights were also conferred on two students. As the Times article states in the case of one of the students "he satisfied the conditions laid down in article 6(1) of Decision No 1/80, he could fully rely on the rights which that provision conferred on him".

You should be aware that 'Europe' has recognised au pairs of having certain features of a worker for a long time...

In the council of Europe agreement for au pair placements from 1969 it says "persons placed "au pair" belong neither to the student category nor to the worker category but to a special category which has features of both, and that therefore it is useful to make appropriate arrangements for them"

So it is no surprise that some of these features meet those specified in article 6(1) of decision 1/80.

Whilediscussing salary and thresholds..

Some more advice I was given before..

If you pay £100 or more per week then your 'au pair' won't be recognised as an au pair by immigration authorities.

Newname, I'd go for an aupair from western europe. That way, no immigration issues and their English can be quite good, especially the Scandinavians. You test them through emails and in a phone call before you actually offer them the role.

I don't bother with aupairs with poor English, especially poor aural comprehension, because I am out of the house most of the time and need to be able to give instructions quickly (just before I leave) or over the phone.

Where? Extracts from previous link...

31 ... According to the description given, those activities display the characteristics necessary to enable, in principle, those who perform them to be regarded as 'workers' ...

...

33 It follows that the characteristics of the jobs held by the three Turkish nationals ... [satisfy the condition of] being in legal employment.

34 The question nevertheless arises whether, in cases where Turkish nationals ... have au pair or student status, they are thereby precluded from the status of workers ...

35 In that regard, it should first be pointed out that a social objective pursued through granting leave to enter as students or as au pairs, together with the related right to work, does not, of itself, take away the lawful character of the activities performed by the persons concerned and, consequently, does not prevent them from being regarded as 'duly registered as belonging to the labour force' of the host Member State ...

45 Provided that the conditions referred to in paragraphs 27 to 30 of the present judgment are met and provided, in particular, that the genuineness of the work performed by the Turkish nationals in question is confirmed, the fact that they have entered as students in order to pursue a course of studies or as au pairs with the aim of mastering the language of the host Member State is immaterial.

...

Treeesa you need to understand that the way law works is that although these rulings were made in the specific case before the court (which related to the immigration status of Turkish students and an au pair), a subsequent court (of equal or lower precedence) looking at similar circumstances will follow the same arguments.

So whilst in this particular case the UK immigration authority was trying to deny the au pair a particular right which is afforded to workers in the UK on the basis that an au pair has some different status, and the ECJ said that was wrong, if someone goes to an Employment Tribunal (or the Court of Appeal, or the ECJ) and tries to deny an au pair some other right which is afforded to workers in the UK on the basis that they have some different status, the judgement should follow that precedent.

Finally, I am aware of the provisions of the 1969 Council of Europe agreement. Unsurprisingly many of the provisions of this agreement have been superceded. For instance...

'Any contracting party may declare that it reserves the right to consider that the term "person placed au pair" shall apply only to females.'

Try relying on that in court!

NewNameOldTopic, apologies for hijack.

On a more practical note, we have found good and bad au pairs and nannies from Western Europe, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia but the one thing that has been consistent is that all the bad ones were recruited over the telephone. Now European flights are so cheap, we always fork out for a flight over for a trial weekend.

Thanks for all the advice -- and the lesson in whether or not an aupair is an employee.

I would definitely as Blushoes suggested be looking at an EU candidate with pretty good English and some childcare experience, but who also is not really experienced enough to call herself a nanny.

I am thinking £95 a week and add some bsitting/cooking into the mix, but still allow her free time whilst kids are at school.

What you've done is taken this court case and extrapolated something that hasn't actually been established.

or put another way

2+2=5

The court was only testing the conditions laid down in the 1980 ruling on Turkish workers. It was not testing any other conditions i.e. to determine if the person had been enjoying cultural exchange, if the person had been attending English classes, if the person had enjoyed enough free time off, if the person was only paid pocket money, if the person had been joining in with family activities etc.

Sorry NewNameOldTopic for hijacking also - but your question about getting an au pair is being answered with information that is unfounded. Maybe I'll set up another thread to carry on that debate.

To back up mranchovy Universal Au Pairs contacted ACAS who said au pairs were definitely employees. If ACAS says they are then I'm inclined to believe them.

Better safe than sorry in any case and by doing this au pairs don't get taken for granted - it makes their status a lot clearer and needn't detract from the cultural exchange aspect. THAT is about the host family's attitude.

I wonder how much people would expect a first time nanny with no qualification and limited experience to earn? Nannyjob are quoting 16 year old mother's helps as earning £50-60 pwn rising to £140 pwn so I think £200 for a totally unqualified, inexperienced person doing a nanny job is not too far off the mark and it was a nice round number. If we take £220 net though it makes it even nicer for a 55 hour week as it comes out to exactly £4 an hour, compare to £3 an hour the au pair would get, or £3.80 on the OP's proposed work schedule. £250, which is the oft-quoted figure for a QUALIFIED nanny, is £4.50 an hour based on the 55 hour week.

You as an employer could administer payroll, especially if you wanted to pay over where they come in for NI but not pay tax as an employer needn't then make any deductions, it's just a record of how much was paid to make it a qualifying year for NI purposes. Deductions aren't made until you hit £110 per week. I've definitely seen people mentioning it on here before as being very simple to do yourself.