Time to go from nanny to au pair?

[NewNameOldTopic]

I have name changed as I believe nanny may read this website and wouldn't want her to read this here. Basically I am pondering when and if to reduce my childcare costs by dropping from a live-in nanny to an au pair. I like our nanny, but I can't rally justify the cost if an au pair would be much cheaper.

So, what would an au pair in the home counties cost me for the following:

2 hours in the morning to include getting the kids fed, dressed, and off to school (all children are in full time school).

3 hours beginning at school pick up to take them to activities, feed them, do some homework, get them ready for bed. and finish at 6:15.

Same schedule every day (Mon. - Fri.). The activity schedule changes, but au pairs hours would remain the same.

On rare occassions I have to travel for work and she would look after them all night (for a separate prenegotiated set fee).

She would get:
Greater London bus travel
Gym membership
mobile phone

I would not pay for English classes, but I would pay for a first aid course if she had not already taken one in the UK.

Since the MN thread from an au pair host who was being threatened with court action from her former su pair over pay for her 'notice' and untaken holiday I have thought it very sensible to treat au pairs as 'live in mothers helps' whatever the case law may or may not support. Giving an au pair a contract, paying for the legal minimum of holiday and treating them as an employee in no way stops the au pair from enjoying the cultural exchange, but it gives peace if mind that when au pair leaves she will not be able to walk into the nearest CAB and be advised that she is owed anything.

I too am of the opinion that an au pair is an employee. I don't know anything about the case being discussed here, but I do know that au pair visas are a thing of the past. With the new visa rules, if you want to bring a foreigner in to work here, you have to sign for them accepting some level of responsibility. I have no intention of taking on this burden. So anyone who works for me nanny or au pair will have to obtain her own right to work in this country without any any financial or other assistance from me. I shall scour Western Europe for a good English speaker.

Also, I need the fleibility to increase the hours if my job changes it's demands, which it does periodically.

For those who have had au pairs who did overnights, mind if I ask what the overnight fee was from normal finish time to normal start time?

Without trying to sound sarcastic but this does sound like he spoke to her, and she spoke to him and he said..!

So why is the information from the web site of Universal Au Pairs considered correct.?

Information from other au pair agencies state otherwise. Why didn't you choose any other au pair agency - Look at peekaboo or a2z au pairs

Universal Au Pairs is a misleading page anyway. Apart from defining what an au pair and a nanny is initially (and there are mistakes in this first part). The information for the rest of the page then lumps both types of childcarer together based on a conversation with ACAS.

The UK government recognises the British Au Pair Association as being the appropriate body to contact regarding the au pair programme in this country. The information on their web site is consistent across reputable au pair agencies - that au pair placements are a cultural exchange - and contradicts what Universal says about employment status.

ACAS look after employees and employers.. Why should they have involvement in international cultural exchange programmes.

Well peekaboo still seem to place Turkish au pairs and their advice on visas links to an out of date page so they're even more dubious than Universal.

I am going to e-mail ACAS myself. If they are there to advise on employer/employee relations then surely they know who falls under their remit. Universal say they specifically asked about au pairs so we'll see what comes back. I also plan to contact the UKBA, HMRC and would welcome suggestions of other organisations.

I think one problem is that each country has different rules/ regulations regarding an au-pairs status/ hours/ visas etc...

newnameold topic - I think you could easily get an au-pair who would cover overnights for you/ adapt for your schedule. At £95 a week this is a good price for an au-pair in this country i believe (some pay £60).
I think if you pay that wage and offer the travel, gym..etc that you said you will find it a lot easier to find one. I have forgotten if you have mentioned but also location is a pull factor.

And regarding paying £200 for a first time nanny, would you work for that? probably 11-12 hours a day, 5 days a week, plus 1/2 nights babysitting, 55-60+ hours a week??

My first live in nanny job nearly 6 years ago I worked that, got less so yeah, I would and did work for that kind of money. I had no childcare qualifications then or much experience and it was a break I needed. Blondes I think got £90 a week in her first job after qualifying. I'm now a teacher and don't have £200 left over after rent, bills, food etc! Besides most jobs for 18 year olds are 40 hours at, what, just over £5 an hour gross so they're not even making £200net. It's commensurate with their (nonexistent) training and experience. The salary hike for the first few years of experience in nannying is really quite disproportionate! I doubled my weekly rate in 3 years from that live in job but so many aspriring nannies say how hard it is to get into childcare with no training or experiences and then won't take jobs cos they want to earn what better qualified more experienced candidates do.

Obviously someone with a couple of years experience and/or a qualification is going to get more but look at jobs around at the moment. Jobs demanding quals and 5 years exp are only paying £300net live in.

In any case, as I demonstrated, even £250 a week which is recommended for a newly qualified nanny isn't much above the proposed hourly rate. And now I'll stop hijacking but I maintain au pairs aren't disproportionately badly paid.

When you look at hourly rates for live-in employees you should remember to account for the value of the room and board, which I figure is somewhere round £1000 per month. Changes the hourly rate a bit.

Well done Frakkin, how about the European Committee on Au Pair Standards and the International Au Pair Association, both based in the Netherlands.

Wow, £1,000 a month for room and board is a lot, although the principle is correct. I think that £75-£150 a week is about right.

Hmmm maybe more like £100-£200 a week - it's a while ago I worked that out!

Ties in well with this table of student living costs.

I think it was Treeesa who pointed out the BR3 form a few months back... though could have been someone else.

Form BR3 (PDF) See section 5 where it states the working time limitations, get 2 days off per week, get a room and paid allowance, must be placed with English speaking family.

So if an au-pair needs to complete a BR3 to enter the country, then does that then mean they are not an employee? Thus if an au-pair does not need a BR3, does that then make them an employee - as they are a worker in the same way as anyone else coming to the UK to work? I know it's not going to be clear cut... but would the BR3 form make any difference to how someone (an HMRC Status Officer, employment tribunal, immigration officer) may look at the case if having to decide if someone was, or was not to be considered as a Worker.

I think don't forget that you are going from someone (the nanny) who is qualified to look after the children (normally by experience) to someone who might be a stroppy teenager who might feel more like another child (to you) at first.

Don't underestimate that when you make the switch.

If you do overnights often, I wouldn't anticipate doing those early on until you are happy the person can provide the level of care you need.

I have seen lots of people struggle with au pairs and ultimately, end up with quite a high turnover. I'm not saying this will happen to you but just to be prepared.

I agree with foxinsocks about preparing for a potentially high turnover. It is in fact my hiring strategy. I have an aupair handbook with timetables, local info etc, checklists for the induction, handover etc, so I can move between aupairs easily.

Build in a 3-week probation period. It should become apparent within the first week whether it is going to work out (you get better with experience at sussing this out). Keep a close eye and be quite proactive at pointing out nicely if you would like them to do things differently. If not working, then move them out quickly. Re-hire.

A lot of whether it works out depends on the aupair's attitude and maturity. If they have the right personality, it does not matter they don't come with all the skills - that can be taught.

Sometimes, in a bad run, you get a chain of duds. Don't agonise. Move on. hth.

P11 of the BR3 (my emphasis): "If you are applying as an au pair: A letter from the family you are staying with giving details of your employment."

But this form contains sections for teachers, airport workers etc. (who no-one would dispute are employees) as well as au pairs and it doesn't have any bearing on employment status.

I've posted a response to this here but have copied it into a new discussion thread continued from Au Pair Placements - is an au pair an employee or cultural exchange

nannynick We've had au pairs from the Czech Republic before and when we called the border & immigration department to register them for the worker registration scheme (necessary for employees from the 2004 new A8 countries) we were told we didn't need to bother as au pair work/placements are not considered employment.

mranchovy If you read the bottom of this page definition of au pair by European Commission then it is quite clear "The committee wants to stress that an au pair is not an employee and therefore not governed by employment legislation."

Just above this it also stresses "Definitions defined by ECAPS are based on the existing European Agreement on Au Pair Placement from 1968 (Ets 068), however updated and detailed to modern standards." So has incorporated the changes made to include male au pairs and other changes that have been made.

Your pointing out of the word 'employment' in document BR3 is another example of 2+2=5 to pick out words to extrapolate an unfounded point. The word employment is often used as a general term. It and 'employed' can be used in different contexts - in some cases inanimate objects can be employed to complete a task as obviously it means 'put to use'.

Mr. A, I don't think £1000 is very high. I am thinking her costs if she did not live in my home would be around:

rent: £700
food: £216 (£50 per week)
utilities: £100

So that's £1016 and doesn't account for all the bits and bobs one has to tend to in their own home... say buying a new hoover or kettle, or bathroom twoels, etc.

I think Inland Revenue used to value board and lodging it at about £35 per week..

It's somewhere in here anyway...

Taxable Benefit of Board & Lodging

They are clearly out of touch. That wouldn't even buy the groceries in my house.