Reconciling nannies' needs and employers' needs

[BoffinMum]

On another thread we have been discussing how fraught the nanny/employer relationship can be. As Gizmo said:

FWIW WRT nannies and the working relationship I think it is one of the most difficult relationships one can experience, for a number of reasons:

a) it crosses the boundary between domestic and business dealings, and neither model of communication is specifically appropriate in that situation
b) nannying as a career is not built around a traditional career path so many of the conventional motivators - increases in responsibility, salary etc - are not present. I find this conflicts with my awareness that it is a hard job and that even I occasionally find my children wearing: sometimes I look at my nanny and think 'but what's in it for you?'
c) the fact that for most nannies the working relationship is not just with Mumboss but also with Dadboss, who is inevitably going to have his own agendas
d) and as everyone has said: the uniquely powerful position that childcarers hold presents many opportunities for paranoia to build extremely rapidly.

Interesting point about there being little public discussion of children as individuals and their personalities, rather than as tokens of success, or potential demand. I suspect that on one level that is inevitable - in all honesty, how much public discussion is there about any individual's personality? It seems so much easier for the media to deal in generalities.

and as MrsWobble said:

many people want proactive nannies who use their initiative - but also want the nanny to do everything the way the employer would have done it. there is an inherent tension here.

many people want a nanny who is as like them as possible - but actually a nanny like you wouldn't be a nanny but would be forging their own high power career.

many people are used to a hierarchy at work and the giving/receiving of instructions - a nanny relationship requires far more of a lateral communication channel to be successful.

many people want their child to be the nanny's focus but get upset by the emotional attachement that develops - another inherent tension.

i think the key to success (if there is one) is to keep a sense of perspective and remember that even if there is "perfection" out there it doesn't matter if you don't find it - good enough really is good enough.

Thoughts, everyone?

I think a lot of nannies need a little humility. After all they are the employee in this situation, they don't 'know better' than the parents and the job comes with a high degree of responsibility which needs a high level of trust. Sensible, professional nannies know that an employer's word is final and turn up to do the job they're paid for.

If one harked back to when nannies were very definitely staff some tensions mentioned were less of an issue. Nanny reported directly to one parent instead of both parents, either as a unit or as two individuals (which is a v difficult balancing act) and was there to work, usually without interference. Admittedly nanny was probably seen as a bit of a lesser being but the emotional attachment was less of a problem because nanny was still seen as 'just the nanny'. The line between employer and employee is becoming increasingly blurred and nannies who want to be 'part of the family' are now a good thing which, really, when you think about it is a little weird. FWIW as a nanny I find it more difficult to work with parents who don't know where the line is themselves, let alone have the ability to enforce it, and prefer to avoid them.

Little by little nannies and other childcarers are gaining the upper hand in relationships - which is not to say that all childcarers are unscrupulous and only out for what they can get - but the increase in the 'warm and fuzzy' approach is making it eassier for nannies to blur the boundaries and parents are reluctant to use that business-like method of communication when it's sometimes necessary. Many problems that appear in this forum stem from a lack of respect on both sides of the fence. Nannies get uppity and parents feel trodden on. Parents make unreasonable demands and nannies feel exploited. A lot of these could be avoided or sorted by good communication, respect for each other (and the contract) and recognition of the respective roles:

parent = employer and therefore boss, the one who knows the child best and what is best for the child and whose word is final

nanny = professional whose expertise is being paying for, who is not owned and who has experience and training which may surpass the parent's knowledge in some areas which should be taken into account sometimes

The point about parents wanting nannies who are similar to them is interesting. Do parents want that? I would much prefer to be employed for my specific skills and expertise by parents whose personalities are quite different to mine than look for a somewhere that I'm an almost exact replica of MB. That's just a recipe for disaster!

I agree with all points, especially about the initiative. It is tricky to find the balance and we all have our little obsessions i.e the thread about cutlery in the dishwasher. So, having someone working in your house will require to be a bit more relaxed.

Another two points are:

• How happy you are with your own job and whether it was your decision to return to work. If not, it can lead to resenting the nanny.

• If you employ a receptionist you know the rules. With a nanny there are rules and you can do it the proffesional way but there are others who don't. They 'll always come and tell you that you could pay cash and avoid tax, you could get a 16 year old for half money or someone desperate to come to uk who will clean your toilet aswell. It leaves you confused, you constantly question yourself if you are fair, or a mug...

I agree with Frakkin. I think the line has become very blurred in the employer/employee relationship. Its nice to have a warm and fuzzy environment for sure, BUT my bosses are not my friends. I have my own social circle. I don't need or want their friendship. What I see as my role within the family unit (as I do think nannies fall within that circle) is to use my knowledge and expertise to provide the most stable, loving, stimulating and healthy environment for the children under my care. I work in partnership with the parents, combining their wishes and wants for their children with my own effective practice gained from experience and the end result is hopefully a situation in which the child(ren) thrice, the parents can get on with their lives and careers, the house runs smoothly and no one feels exploited or resentful. Its a fine line sometimes. Tact and diplomacy and a hefty dose of common sense are essential, and a sense of humor too! But when it works, its wonderful

parent = employer and therefore boss, the one who knows the child best and what is best for the child and whose word is final

nanny = professional whose expertise is being paying for, who is not owned and who has experience and training which may surpass the parent's knowledge in some areas which should be taken into account sometimes

agree with what boffy said

i have a good relationship with my familys (and all others)

though i dont want them on my fb, prob anymore then she would want me on her's

nice to have a bit of privacy to maon/get drunk etc

but i have ex employers on it,as easy way to keep in touch with them and ex charges

obv it is about balance, i do use my own innactive as there is no point in mb employing me, for me to ring her up everytime to check/ask something

I've been thinking a bit more about this and wondered if there is a difference between nanny employers who were looked after by nannies themselves and "first generation" nanny employers.

I ask because I have noticed that my children are much more comfortable in getting on with their lives whilst the nanny/cleaner get on with their jobs. Even after 20 years of employing a cleaner I still have the residual guilt that I really ought to be able to hoover my own carpets etc. I think this manifests itself most clearly when interacting with them. For example, if I wanted to wear something that needed laundering I would ask her if she would mind finding the time to do it or some other equally indirect words whereas my children will just hand it to her saying can you wash this please.

Looking back I can see that my first nanny must have found it very frustrating not knowing exactly what I wanted as I seemed unable to distinguish between things that really didn't matter and things I actually minded about quite a lot when I was talking to her.

I know I've got a lot better, and more direct, but I suspect my children will never suffer the same awkwardness. And as long as they continue to be polite about it (which they are now) then that seems to be much better for all concerned.

I think parents sometimes feel as though they are putting themselves in jeopardy when trying to tell nannies 'what really matters to them but may not seem like much to you.' Nannies have definitely got the upper hand I think, despite there being a general downward trend in 2009 of prospective families to prospective nannies ratio.

Employees that work within a domestic environment (childcare workers, cleaners, chefs, chauffeurs, etc.) are also basically the only group of 'professionals' that can very easily muddle their CV's and references. Anyone who works for institutions, companies, etc. will have very little chance of writing those off or being able to tweak their responsibilities, salary, etc. Nannies and cleaners et. al generally provide mobile phone numbers and written references, almost every one of my nanny friends has 'fessed up to lying at least partially about their duties/salary/length of stay on their CV. I know that the vast majority of people do, but I think it's easier to get past this when working in a domestic environment.

Therefore interesting that a nanny who may not be entirely honest, or as thoroughly recommended as the family that hired her may believe - can basically control a family insofar as they go into mayhem when she quits. They in my opinion are far less likely to complain about her general lack of initiative, helpless housekeeping, fashion faux pas, etc. because they're scared of being thrown into a childcare-less situation which is absolutely horrendous (as Boffy has experienced, although not due to reasons stated above!)

That was a very long roundabout way of saying I think nannies should step off a bit and realise that if someone critisizes your ironing or your burnt food, they're not critisizing you like a family member or a spouse would, but as an employer and you should take the high road and try to change regardless of your good relationship with them, and especially not get uppity and harumphy.

DH also says that some people who are attracted to nannying as a job (and I deliberately don't use the word career here) are rather unaware of the non-domestic world and rather self-orientated. So things that are commonplace in a more conventional workplace are regarded as strange or loaded issues.

For example things like the fact an arbitrary 50p an hour 'because I'm worth it and feel like it' pay rise on a £350 a week net salary in fact equates to a 7% pay rise (unheard of in the present climate, so wholly out of step with the rest of the world, so therefore a Big Ask). That using an employer's small car for leisure and commuting purposes will attract a taxable payment of £375 a year plus £2700 for fuel if the employer provides that as well, so if you're not prepared to cough up you are effectively asking your employer to break the law in giving it to you, or if you expect them to cough up the tax, this is equivalent to a 15% uplift in salary, so again a Big Ask. And my personal favourite, that standing in front of someone who is obviously busy and tired and overloaded, and saying 'Ooo, I am looking forward to my day off tomorrow and a nice lie in' is plain bad office politics

Professional nannies who see it as a career are a lot more clued up on all this stuff, with NannyNick probably at the forefront of tax awareness.

I wonder if education plays a part. In early 1900s those entering domestic service may not have been very well educated. The same may apply now, with childcare being considered to be the thing to do if a teenager fails their GCSE's. A few months back I overheard (well she was being rather loud so everyone in the cinema could hear) a teenage girl saying to her boyfriend that it wouldn't matter if she failed her GCSE's as she would get a job in a nursery or be a nanny.
Some nannies have a higher level qualification (BTEC HND, Degree, NVQ Level 4) in a subject unrelated, or with a loose relation to nannying. Nannies like that have taken a different path into becoming a nanny, I feel that caring for children may be more their passion, than something to do to pay the rent. These nannies may have more in common with their employers, may have gone to the same private school.

Do we think there is an essential difference between 'nannying' and 'childcare'? The latter is a relatively new term and redolent of service provision, with children as neutral commodoties in there somewhere.

I do agree with NannyNick to a point in regards to education. When I did my nanny course I was only 16 (I started school a year early then skipped a grade so was two years younger then my peers) and my mother did not want me going to uni at 16. her advice was to learn a skill such as nannying, admin, bar work etc so I would have something to always fall back on - best advice ever given.

The girls on my course were the girls who had failed school, left school early or just wanted to work with children. I do not know how many went on to further education in the childcare/education field. My course was one of the first ones in existence in Australia so only ran for 4 months. I later went on to study undergrad and post grad courses at uni so I am not the typical nanny.

I have found that it has made a difference when looking for a poition. I do not have the three year nanny course from a certain English college but I have other qualifications and experience that an 18year school leaver would not have. So in regards to the educational aspect, who is the better nanny on paper?

Nannying is more personal perhaps. Nannies provide childcare but they do more as well, they may build a more intense relationship with the children if they are caring for them for many years.

Its tricky isn't it... I agree with most of what the others have written. One thing that I want to add (and I'm sure lots of you may have similar experiences) is that, unlike other work relationships, I'm keen as an employer to keep a good, friendly relationship with a nanny (or ex nanny) even when she's done things that I disagree with, or even when she might leave not on great terms, because of her relationship with my DS... very different to any other work relationship.

Slightly off-topic but check out Mrs Moneypenny's column in today's FT Magazine about her new au-pair - who is German and, it appears, has completed training as a chef...It's very funny.

Summersoon - is there an online version of That?

I can see MrsW's theory - for me the core difficulty is the immediacy, and thus the limited perspective, of the relationship: in just about any other working relationship you see how person A interacts with person B, and C, and D, all the way to person ZZ, and you get a rounded sense of what they're like and where they're reasonable and where they have foibles and the corners get rubbed off a bit in all that mutual interaction.

In the closeness of a nanny/employer situation, telling the difference between frictions of personality and Big Principle Problems is really hard - but may be easier for someone who grew up with nannies, as then there is an element of perspective.

I'm quite a seasoned nanny-employer now: ds is nearly 11, dd is 9, and we have had a range from SuperNanny to AussieTreasure to RunningAwayFromReality to (currently) PersonWithOwnFreelanceCareerWhoIsGoodWithChildrenAndNeedsASteadyIncomeToo. And each one who comes along we are better at choosing, and better at settling in with, and better about sorting boundaries, and better at making the most of what they can offer, and eventually about happily waving them off on their next adventure as they leave us.

Yes, there is - go to FT.com, the select "Arts and Leisure" in the column on the LH side, then "Columnists", then "Mrs Moneypenny" and the article is called "The mixed blessing of the aupair who can cook". Click on the headline. Or maybe the link below will work!

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e231b516-0a1c-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html

Let's try that one again. It would help if I read the instructions on to post a link first

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e231b516-0a1c-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html

I don't know

we have certainly got better at interviewing/employing nannies as the children get older

we are lucky, I think, that we have not had an issue with any nanny relationship that we have had but we are very laid back and have fully encouraged the children to love and respect the nannies that we have had

I think nannying children gets harder as the children get older. Certainly looking after that pre teen age cannot be easy, it must be emotionally demanding, more so than babies/toddlers where it is more incessant (if that makes sense) although I recognise you can do more with them when they are bigger.

If I look back over all our nannies, if I was being super critical, I could pick out something each one didn't do well but it was always only ever one thing really and the most important thing was that they loved and looked after the children well and cared for them. In truth, that's all I have ever wanted from a nanny - if they can cook well and organise then that is a bonus.

And the nanny that worked out the best for us was totally unlike me or dh. I think it was a refreshing change for the children and a change they enjoyed!

on how to

I have had only one glass of wine. Honest.

Thanks Summersoon - enjoyed reading that

Sounds a bit Pollyfilla to me ...

I agree with Nick's point about education. I will totally put my hand up to being an educational snob when it comes to nannies: first nanny was a Cambridge graduate and although she had limited childcare experience she was excellent, partly because of the vocation thing. That's obviously not likely to be repeated but I'm generally looking for minimum decent A levels, a higher level qualification or, ideally a degree which is not in childcare.

This sort of career pattern often means someone has a CV with experience outside childcare: they understand a line management relationship, which is probably the closest thing to an appropriate and commonly understood model for a nannying relationship.

That's not being an educational snob IMO. It just reflects that education is important to you and you want someone intellectual and rounded looking after your children. Of course not all graduates are brilliant academically but there's a much higher likelihood that they will be at least vaguely academic.

I think people are also very right to say that they're also likely to have had other jobs and chosen nannying as a vacation rather than something they had to do because they didn't have any other career option. Nannies who've been line nanaged before understand more about professionalism in general. I haven't got a DCE or NNEB but are professional skills for nannies covered? Obviously that's something the Place We Do Not Name have been falling down on but is it something that's just missing, even in a 1 hour class for 'nannying is one career option, here is what you need to know'?

Employers: are trained nannies better at managing the relationship than untrained ones or is there no difference? And does having had a different job help? Is it something which comes with experience or are some nannies never going to get it and the habits become entrenched?

Does all this then mean, just out of interest, that as a nanny is hired at the employers convenience and the employers needs come first rightly so, that the employer can treat their nanny as badly as they like?

I find that whilst I'm polite, respectful, meet all my employers demands as well as I possibly can I find being treated like a human being is something that rarely happens.

Agree that the whole wanting to be a member of the family thing with nannies is weird.

Couple of thoughts; given angles of discussion. I have had 2 nannies (no great statistical sample) - although just spent my mat leave surrounded by many in order to maintain play dates etc. and know a fair few more.

1st one - from the place we do not name. She was superb; prob best "nanny" in terms of organisation, child activities, quality of care etc. I will ever see. She managed me (believe me this is no mean feat!!), was super proactive etc. She was also had good a levels etc. and was intelligent, not really one of the nanny pack.

2nd one - no childcare qualifications, 2 degrees; also intelligent (see what I value?!), and is all round excellent; although does need some guidance on things like weaning etc. Which I have no problem with but is prob a gap in "training"; although both had >10 years exp.

So, what do I conclude; I also want my kids to be surrounded by intelligent folk who can make interesting conversation and am less fussed about their ability to change nappies and wean a child as I believe that is really easily picked up by anyone with some good common sense.

I guess I think you just need to trust your instincts, know what you value and be prepared to turn your guidance on or off as the situation calls for